What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa? - Page 2
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Old 19-01-2015, 11:22 AM   #21
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by surgeongeneral View Post
Yes, what a struggle.
im only playing devils advocate here. but being able to look at all of your channel strips at once is a def a good thing to be able to do.

especially those if us out that come from analog mixing, which i do. my setup is pretty hybrid at the moment, mixing in the box and then submixing stems to 16 channels on a desk to do analog summing and subtle eq sweetening.

just sayin.

that said, i use ableton as my primary songwriting and production tool. im not knocking it.

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Old 19-01-2015, 02:08 PM   #22
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by rinzao View Post
Can't do curved automation envelopes and that's annoying.
Yes it can
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Old 19-01-2015, 02:11 PM   #23
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Kemono View Post

So maybe Abelton sucks really bad at mixing,
but I find it really good at the production side of things (maybe except recording).
If you are talking stock standard DAW then yes, it doesn't have the capabilities that Logic does but with a few third party plugins the two can attain the identical goal.

Last edited by Dawsi; 19-01-2015 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 19-01-2015, 02:20 PM   #24
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Dawsi View Post
If you are talking stock standard DAW then yes, it doesn't have the capabilities that Logic does but with a few third party plugins there two can attain the identical goal.
Again, its not about what it can or can not do,
but about the workflow of doing specific task.

With Abelton's very limited max4live functions, and since it does not have any scripting support,
(which, again, I find very odd that DAW's does not include).
I find it hard to believe that you can change Abelton's layout and functions to a degree where it can compete against other "Mixing DAWs".


Edit: One more thing about Abelton, you can can not freeze tracks with plugins (even disabled)that have input from other tracks, e.g. Sidechain.
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Old 19-01-2015, 02:50 PM   #25
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
Again, its not about what it can or can not do,
but about the workflow of doing specific task.

With Abelton's very limited max4live functions, and since it does not have any scripting support,
(which, again, I find very odd that DAW's does not include).
I find it hard to believe that you can change Abelton's layout and functions to a degree where it can compete against other "Mixing DAWs".


Edit: One more thing about Abelton, you can can not freeze tracks with plugins (even disabled)that have input from other tracks, e.g. Sidechain.
The question is "What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?"

Because workflow is different does not mean that it doesn't compete. Because you prefer one of two paths to the same objective doesn't mean the other method is unsuitable. Workflow is down to personal preference. I'm not sure what you mean by scripting support, but I don't know of another DAW that has an open API and a public development community such as Max4Live.

"Freezing tracks" - what are you trying to do? Because you can't do it in the same way doesn't mean that you cannot do it.
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Old 19-01-2015, 03:54 PM   #26
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

If you have never experiment how much easier a good scripting language can do for your worflow,
you have been missing out. But then again, seeing as DAW's generally does not have any scripting languages build inn.

I can give you an example,
here is a simple script I made for a TV series, back in 2009, in 3dstudiomax, [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]


Say for an example, you want to temporarily disable all time-effect plugins, you can either do it by hand for those 30+ tracks you have or you could have made a script that targets specific effects, and effects that include a specific title (such as "reverb").

Or maybe you want to do an automation that looks like a sinewave across the whole track,
or maybe A/B it against a sawwave automation.

maybe you have 15 hihat samples that sounds almost identical, you want to add a random midi note on every 8th note, except the 7th note every fourth bar, through all of the midi clips on one specific track.

Or maybe you want to put your favorite plugins on a shelf so you can drag drop them down from your own userbar without having to browse or search for them every time.

I have tons more examples where I would have used a scripting language if it was available.



But anyway, back to the topic at hand.
If you find Abelton perfect for Mixing, then use it.
But I'm gonna go out of a limb here,
and say that most people would find protools a whole lot more proficient at that specific task.
I'm personally using Presonus Studio One, as it features a lot more "little things" that just makes it easier to mix inn.

Freezing tracks,
If you have any suggestions to workaround, please let me know.
But afaik, the only way you can work with tracks that have plugins that ref another track,
is to bounce down that track, import it and delete the other original track.
When you want to make changes, re-import the original track, from a previous save, make sure the volume is matched to the "frozen track" and delete the "frozen audiofile".
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Old 19-01-2015, 05:29 PM   #27
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

I ran a script in Ableton that allows me to map a parameter of all of the devices in a drum rack to a single knob (avoiding having to map them all individually). I don't really mess with stuff like that very much, and I certainly can't compare the scripting capabilities or support to other DAWs.

Actually, I don't even know if I'm using the term "script" right. Here's what I did:

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Old 19-01-2015, 05:32 PM   #28
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

I can understand a desire to automate a mundane and common rendering process which will always be the same, such as the example you have given in 3DSM, but that isn't going to be applicable for the examples you provided:

Quote:
maybe you have 15 hihat samples that sounds almost identical, you want to add a random midi note on every 8th note, except the 7th note every fourth bar, through all of the midi clips on one specific track.
Because every song would be different means changing script specifics for each song. The process involved in updating a script would be administratively prohibitive and take you longer than it would to change each attribute of the song so I don't see how it applies.

If I have a VPS Multiband Sidechain plugin which is being referenced by a high-hat on another track I would just disable the plugin for the desired duration. 1000 ways to skin a cat.
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Old 19-01-2015, 08:17 PM   #29
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Dawsi View Post
The process involved in updating a script would be administratively prohibitive and take you longer than it would to change each attribute of the song so I don't see how it applies.
I might have missed something so ignore if I'm totally off-topic .

I think with Live it is kinda the same as scripting in 3dmax. With M4l you can create devices tailored to how you work, using an API that's integrated with Live. The example of modulating a parameter with a wave-shaped LFO is a good one because with M4l you can create the device and map Live parameters to the LFO by simple mouse clicks.

To do the same with a VST like one of cableguys modulation VST's requires using a virtual midi port, sending midi out from the VST and back in to Live again and mapping that midi input to the parameter you want to map. It really sucks doing it that way.

With scripts you can create modules that you use over and over. There's no point in paying money for something that you can design yourself.

With regards to having to redesign the script each time you start a new track - it depends. If you've used a script to build devices - you're going to use those devices regularly. And if you script intelligently your script will recognize device names so you can rename the device to something the script recognizes and it's automatically integrated into the script.

Having a native/near native scripting language is one of the most useful tools in any app - music, animation, cad, spreadsheets...it allows you to customize your toolkit in a way that would just be too expensive and clunky if you were to fill every need with a 3rd party plugin.
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Old 19-01-2015, 08:31 PM   #30
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by scyn View Post
I might have missed something so ignore if I'm totally off-topic .

I think with Live it is kinda the same as scripting in 3dmax. With M4l you can create devices tailored to how you work, using an API that's integrated with Live. The example of modulating a parameter with a wave-shaped LFO is a good one because with M4l you can create the device and map Live parameters to the LFO by simple mouse clicks.

To do the same with a VST like one of cableguys modulation VST's requires using a virtual midi port, sending midi out from the VST and back in to Live again and mapping that midi input to the parameter you want to map. It really sucks doing it that way.

With scripts you can create modules that you use over and over. There's no point in paying money for something that you can design yourself.

With regards to having to redesign the script each time you start a new track - it depends. If you've used a script to build devices - you're going to use those devices regularly. And if you script intelligently your script will recognize device names so you can rename the device to something the script recognizes and it's automatically integrated into the script.

Having a native/near native scripting language is one of the most useful tools in any app - music, animation, cad, spreadsheets...it allows you to customize your toolkit in a way that would just be too expensive and clunky if you were to fill every need with a 3rd party plugin.
Sure, but there's a difference between scripting a module which is targeted at devices and creating a script which will modify individual song/tack characteristics, which was the example given. I'm suggesting there is more capability to create proprietary modifications for bespoke solutions in Live than there is in Logic. How do you do the equivalent to M4L in Logic?
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Old 19-01-2015, 09:42 PM   #31
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

I mean sure, max 4 live have more capability than Logic does, then again Logic has hotkey remapabilites which max standard doesn't have.

I'm not sold on max 4 live, and I think the asking price for that is only worth it if you plan to mess about a lot with external devices.

Something like this.. the idea I just invented, which I will now call the "hihat addaptive-subtractive midi clip randomizer",

Should be in reality be trivial to make. And should be something you can do in an evening without any other prior scripting or programming knowledge.
It should be that way, but it isn't, so maybe 10 years in the future DAW's will eventually start to pick up some of these features.

Also, I'm pretty sure you have to delete the effect to be able to freeze the track, not just disable it.
Unless you create another track to route through it and put all effects after said effects on that,
then again, you cant freeze those effects.
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Old 19-01-2015, 10:05 PM   #32
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

You do have to delete the compressor if its taking sidechain information from elsewhere.
But I think you're kind of making it out to be harder than it really is.

Command D to duplicate the track. Delete the compressor from the original. Freeze / flatten. Click drag compressor from duplicated track to the newly rendered original. Delete duplicate track

Takes all of 60 seconds +/- a few.

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Old 20-01-2015, 01:21 AM   #33
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

The whole idea about freezing a track with a sidechain compressor is kind of foolish anyway. It makes sense why you can't do that. What if you change the track that is driving the compressor? Then the frozen track won't reflect these changes and you'd have to freeze it again to reflect the new changes. But whatever.

Also the discussion about a scripting engine in a DAW? What percent of peopel using Live protools etc. want to script things? I'd say generously 10 %. The amount of programming resources it would take to integrate that into a codebase could be massive.

Max for Live is free with Live suite btw.

Of course I am super biased as I use Live and Max for all my personal creative endeavors.

Max for Live is one of the most exciting things to happen in a commercial DAW ever, in my opinion. You can do all types of scripting with it (you can write scripts with Javascript that can do incredible things), and it gives you access to Live's API. Not to mention externals with Java, C++ etc.

Now im becoming tangental.

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Old 20-01-2015, 04:47 AM   #34
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by chasedobson View Post
not really. the traditional view of meter, fader, channel strip, input gain is missing. many rely on that visual.
Eh? Expand the master section and you'll see the gain readout on the VU and in dB. Want to see the inputs and outputs on a channel? Cmd + Shift + I for input/output, Cmd + Shift + S for sends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
But not possible more than one device view (channel strip) at a time though,
and also no floating windows (detachable), and also no triple monitor support.
Incorrect, there is a setting in the Live's preferences for this. You can either show the active channel or all open windows. Showing the active channel just shows the device windows you have open on that channel. When you switch out they disappear, and reappear when you switch back. Setting to all open windows means that any open device windows stay visible regardless of the actively selected channel. It's not uncommon to have two instances of the same synth open in Live and accidentally select the wrong one. That is why the first thing I do is rename each instance.

Live does have dual monitor support and there is nothing stopping you from dragging your device windows to a third monitor.

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Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
It all adds up, all these small things.
You ever worked against a deadline, you know how those little things matter.
Yes, I have worked to many deadlines in all kinds of creative work and if something as arbitrary as opening and closing windows is causing you to miss deadlines, then your problems run deeper than not understanding a software interface.

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Originally Posted by chasedobson View Post
im only playing devils advocate here. but being able to look at all of your channel strips at once is a def a good thing to be able to do.
You can get Live to display devices on the channel strip. With the input section visible, this displays the same amount of information as Logic per channel in the mixer section. People just need to do their research.

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Originally Posted by Dawsi View Post
If you are talking stock standard DAW then yes, it doesn't have the capabilities that Logic does but with a few third party plugins the two can attain the identical goal.
Incorrect. Ableton would have to develop a ton of features before it even comes close to having the MIDI functionality of Logic. Firstly, Live's piano roll is terrible and many of the features that should be accessible are separated out into the clip envelope view. Then there's the MIDI events list, or the complete lack thereof. And Live's groove and quantisation features pale in comparison to Logic's. In actual fact, there is no comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
With Abelton's very limited max4live functions, and since it does not have any scripting support, (which, again, I find very odd that DAW's does not include).
I'd say this is due to your very limited understanding of Max4Live's capabilities because this is completely untrue. The Live API is very accessible via Max4Live and you can change just about anything you can think of, including Live's core functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
Say for an example, you want to temporarily disable all time-effect plugins, you can either do it by hand for those 30+ tracks you have or you could have made a script that targets specific effects, and effects that include a specific title (such as "reverb").
This is ridiculously easy to do. There are tools like ClyphX et al that provide this kind of functionality. What's more, if you understand scripting and refer to Live's API, there's a few simple commands you could run to stop all instances of device X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
Or maybe you want to do an automation that looks like a sinewave across the whole track,
or maybe A/B it against a sawwave automation.
Another task that is easily achieved. Plenty of LFOs and envelope devices that can be mapped to any parameters in Live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
maybe you have 15 hihat samples that sounds almost identical, you want to add a random midi note on every 8th note, except the 7th note every fourth bar, through all of the midi clips on one specific track.
Again, very easily achieved and there are plenty of MIDI randomisation devices already on offer. And, again, if you understand scripting, it's very easy to write your own script that behaves exactly how you want it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
Or maybe you want to put your favorite plugins on a shelf so you can drag drop them down from your own userbar without having to browse or search for them every time.
On a shelf? What DAW has a "shelf" outside of their EQ devices? What is stopping you from creating a favourites folder in your library and saving your favourite plugins and device chains in there for easy access and then bookmarking the folder? For someone going on about deadlines, you sure are fucking lazy.

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Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
I have tons more examples where I would have used a scripting language if it was available.
MaxMSP is a scripting language. Similar to how JavaScript can access and manipulate the DOM, Max4Live can manipulate the Live API.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
Freezing tracks,
If you have any suggestions to workaround, please let me know.
But afaik, the only way you can work with tracks that have plugins that ref another track,
is to bounce down that track, import it and delete the other original track.
There's your solution right there. It's as simple as that. But why would you delete the original track? Just disable the devices in the channel. Easily done by grouping the devices in a rack. Just select one device, then press Cmd + A then Cmd + G. Simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemono View Post
Should be in reality be trivial to make. And should be something you can do in an evening without any other prior scripting or programming knowledge.
It should be that way, but it isn't, so maybe 10 years in the future DAW's will eventually start to pick up some of these features.
That is trivial and easy to make. But to suggest that one should be able to sit down for half an hour and all of a sudden understand Live's API well enough to know how to do it is laughable. The idea that you think you should be able to develop that level of competency in such a short span of time kind of makes it hard to take anything you're saying very seriously.
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Old 20-01-2015, 06:21 AM   #35
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by RFJ View Post
You do have to delete the compressor if its taking sidechain information from elsewhere.
But I think you're kind of making it out to be harder than it really is.

Command D to duplicate the track. Delete the compressor from the original. Freeze / flatten. Click drag compressor from duplicated track to the newly rendered original. Delete duplicate track

Takes all of 60 seconds +/- a few.
you can also put frozen tracks in groups and sidechain the group.

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Old 20-01-2015, 06:24 AM   #36
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Eh? Expand the master section and you'll see the gain readout on the VU and in dB. Want to see the inputs and outputs on a channel? Cmd + Shift + I for input/output, Cmd + Shift + S for sends.

come on man, give me some credit. my statement was referring to a full channel strip. as in being able to glance across all channels to see eq settings or even comp/gate settings depending on how involved the channel strip is.

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Old 20-01-2015, 06:42 AM   #37
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by chasedobson View Post
come on man, give me some credit. my statement was referring to a full channel strip. as in being able to glance across all channels to see eq settings or even comp/gate settings depending on how involved the channel strip is.


I'd really love to know which analog mixing desk is capable of showing you which inserts are active on a channel, along with a readout of compression AND eq in a way that it's instantly readable across all tracks. I'd also like to know which DAW's offer all of this functionality.

Logic's channel strips certainly don't. The only thing that is displayed on Logic's channel strip that can't be displayed in Live's channel strip is the EQ curve. But this isn't really useful, it just shows me that I have a highpass active on most channels, which I don't need a readout to know. Sure, it gives me a tiny representation of the curve, but that doesn't tell me anything valuable. I still need to open the EQ window to view the curve in any way that is readable and useful.

Beyond that, Logic and Live's channel strips are identical in almost every way except for the chrome and a few minor differences. Eg: Live doesn't have channel strip Setting menu. You can access saved channel strips through the Live browser.
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Old 20-01-2015, 06:53 AM   #38
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

To me though, working in Tools or Logic feels like the digital equivalent of a nice desk with some sweet racks to patch in on inserts or mix groups with enough auxiliaries to quickly create headphone mixes for recording.
In Live you simply can't do this with ease. Live just isn't designed for serious recording sessions. Whereas in Tools or Logic, it's very easy for me to set up several headphone mixes on the fly takes a few mouse clicks. You just can't do this with Live.

In contrast, Live feels like playing with a sweet modular system where the length of your patch cables is unimportant and you don't have to worry too much about things like clock speed. That's cool and a lot of fun. But it only gets you so far. I certainly wouldn't want to track something like a band using Live.

The other big limitation with Live is that it has a maximum of eight auxiliary busses. You can send audio to any channel, but this functionality is incredibly limited. Nowhere near the amount of flexibility of Logic or Tools in this regard.

Also, grouping tracks in Live is shit. Well, it's not shit. But for grouping in the traditional sense (i.e. mix groups) it just sucks. Logic and Tools both handle this more gracefully than Live... I really hope that by version 10 they've figured out some way to separate the master section from the session view, it's certainly outgrown it.

Version 10 needs to have some serious game changers to justify updating again. Live 9 had a few nice improvements. But no amount of graphic design can change the fact that their major version updates are incremental at best. It's time for Ableton to start incorporating some more traditional design aesthetic and functionality.
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Old 20-01-2015, 07:57 AM   #39
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

Reaper (I think) is like Pro Tools - route anything to anywhere. Easy to group tracks into folders.

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Old 20-01-2015, 07:49 PM   #40
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Re: What can Ableton not do that other DAW's can and vice versa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post


I'd really love to know which analog mixing desk is capable of showing you which inserts are active on a channel, along with a readout of compression AND eq in a way that it's instantly readable across all tracks. I'd also like to know which DAW's offer all of this
Meow meow meow.

I just wanna see all of my eqs for a given mix like I do on an old heritage board. Forgive my predeliction towards analog...

My workflow is still mixing in the box and then sub grouping channel outs to this early 80s 24 channel Panasonic desk to sum/sweeten with so, yeah...

Combination of curent tech and dark ages bullshit...

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