Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?
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Old 19-02-2013, 12:33 AM   #1
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Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

I wanted your thoughts on a subject that occurred to me today. When we create music we often might have an intention in mind: your track will perhaps induce sadness, aggression, happiness, dancing, etc. in the listener.

However, when we are creating the track we see it evolve from simple ideas to a complex whole over a relatively long period of time; I think 30 to 40 hours and more may be the norm for somebody who is well practised and has determination to complete tracks. We know the track thoroughly and will have spent significant time on numerous details.

When we come towards the later point of creating a track, do you know whether the track is a 'good' track in the sense that it either achieves the goal you set out to achieve (inducing sadness, aggression, happiness or dancing in the listener) or at least is a track that other people will wish to listen to? Or does the long familiarity with the track reduce the effects of the music on you to an extent that you can not guess accurately whether the track will have the desired effect on other people?

The question is not whether the track is well produced or sounds professional; for the purpose of the question I assume that the track is of a quality high enough to be listenable to most people.

Thanks for any thoughts and experiences you can share.

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Old 19-02-2013, 12:36 AM   #2
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Everybody knows if their track is good or not, haven't you been on soundcloud?
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Old 19-02-2013, 12:42 AM   #3
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

The quality-part is pretty easy. Take notes to how clear things are and how wide it is. This is bascially what distinguish a bad production from a good production. Atleast this is the way I've figured it.

When it comes to if other people would like it, I don't really care _that_ much.
If I'm happy with the way the track turns out, then I will be proud. If other people likes my track, that is a good thing, but not necessary.

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Old 19-02-2013, 01:40 AM   #4
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

It's like the same question we've seen a dozen threads for, just re-worded. Same answer though.

Make music/art/whatever the hell it is for YOU, not to please others. if you like it, well shucks it must be good.
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Old 19-02-2013, 01:49 AM   #5
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

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Originally Posted by Numerical View Post
It's like the same question we've seen a dozen threads for, just re-worded. Same answer though.

Make music/art/whatever the hell it is for YOU, not to please others. if you like it, well shucks it must be good.
This.

Depending on others reaction to your song will not get the best out of you.

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Old 19-02-2013, 02:05 AM   #6
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Sorry, but I don't think any of you have answered the question; does familiarity with the track you are creating reduce your ability to determine whether it's having a desired effect? It may be that none of you who have answered so far ever create music in order to achieve a specific effect; it may be that you create whatever comes to mind as you are doing it which I agree is an extremely satisfying method of producing art. However, there are many times an artist would set out to achieve a certain effect from the beginning; for example, when creating a track to fit into a scene from a video game, television program, film, to be used in a nightclub for dancing, or to project a certain emotion within the journey of a concept album, to match lyrics that you or somebody has already written, or perhaps as an artistic challenge.

A clear example; at the start of a new track you may create an extremely bouncy & danceable loop of music that has your head nodding while you're tuning the VSTs, etc. Do you find that repeated listening reduces the physical nodding of your head over time & if so, how do you know that track in its developed form would have that same effect on the dancefloor when heard by somebody else? How, if at all, do you know you are not diluting that original effect each time you make changes to the track? Do you find alternatively that a good loop of music will always sound exciting even after extensive repeated listening?
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Old 19-02-2013, 02:07 AM   #7
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Its good if you like it

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Old 19-02-2013, 02:09 AM   #8
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Hard to say, after 20-30 hours anything gets a bit dull for me really. Best to just switch it around a bit if your unsure, or just do something completely different.
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Old 19-02-2013, 02:09 AM   #9
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Of course it affects you listening to the same song for 20 hours.
Any song will get on your mind after 20 hours.

If this was not a problem, every single song released would be a banger.
But in the end, all people are different.

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Old 19-02-2013, 02:23 AM   #10
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Some artists are consistently good however at making music that achieves a certain expression of emotion. I assume therefore they may have techniques that allow them to continue judging the effectiveness of their track even after a huge number of hours work. I guess it's a question of whether you can either listen to your track with fresh ears again, or, understand musical techniques well enough within a particular genre to know they will always produce the same emotional effect in people (the most obvious example being major scale for happy songs, minor scale for sad songs.) Alternatively, artists may just become lucky & by following their muse end up repeating their success over a large number of tracks through chance; that would perhaps explain why most artists have a period of high quality artistry which fades away after a time.
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Old 19-02-2013, 02:27 AM   #11
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhanMuSi View Post
Some artists are consistently good however at making music that achieves a certain expression of emotion. I assume therefore they may have techniques that allow them to continue judging the effectiveness of their track even after a huge number of hours work. I guess it's a question of whether you can either listen to your track with fresh ears again, or, understand musical techniques well enough within a particular genre to know they will always produce the same emotional effect in people (the most obvious example being major scale for happy songs, minor scale for sad songs.) Alternatively, artists may just become lucky & by following their muse end up repeating their success over a large number of tracks through chance; that would perhaps explain why most artists have a period of high quality artistry which fades away after a time.
Playing their track live

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Old 19-02-2013, 02:31 AM   #12
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Thanks, that's the best answer yet. I'm not sure it would cover all examples though, for example, making eerie music for a horror film. However, the equivalent may be having a trusted listener who knows & likes the genre you are producing in & is able to give you an honest opinion?
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Old 19-02-2013, 02:48 AM   #13
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Depends on what's your goal. It depends on who do you produce it for
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Old 19-02-2013, 01:06 PM   #14
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhanMuSi View Post
Thanks, that's the best answer yet. I'm not sure it would cover all examples though, for example, making eerie music for a horror film. However, the equivalent may be having a trusted listener who knows & likes the genre you are producing in & is able to give you an honest opinion?
Yeh, djs test their tracks at their shows to see how the crowd react. They will send them to other djs as well to get feedback ect.. Certain people, label managers for example for a hip hoper might not feel that a track is the direction that said artist should be moving in.

Alot of chart music is basically the same song in a different way. Alot of follow up singles as well, same chord progression just a different way of playing it. This is because if the first single was successful then they know the listener already likes the song that is about to be put out as a follow up.

Dont like these songs but
and the follow up single
both only use G D C Em

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Old 19-02-2013, 01:26 PM   #15
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

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Originally Posted by Aktix View Post
Yeh, djs test their tracks at their shows to see how the crowd react. They will send them to other djs as well to get feedback ect.. Certain people, label managers for example for a hip hoper might not feel that a track is the direction that said artist should be moving in.

Alot of chart music is basically the same song in a different way. Alot of follow up singles as well, same chord progression just a different way of playing it. This is because if the first single was successful then they know the listener already likes the song that is about to be put out as a follow up.
Nobody's Perfect - Lyrics - HD - YouTube[/url] both only use G D C Em
Exactly. Good example
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Old 20-02-2013, 12:17 AM   #16
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Excellent example! I'd never realised that some artists made tracks so closely similar; that's definitely an eye opener.

The examples of tracks and other things you mention make the point that a mainstream artist with financial backing will have a lot of people invested in and assisting them in the production of their tracks and those people around them are going to help keep them on the right track. Similarly, any artist producing for film, tv, or video games no doubt will have other people (directors, producers, etc.) also as a check on what they are producing and no doubt letting them know when the music they are producing isn't having the desired emotional or mood effects.

It's perhaps harder for a computer musician who is an artist for pleasure and doesn't play live to judge the effect of a piece of music though; and perhaps harder to judge whether a piece of music will have a desired emotional effect on a listener. It's fairly easy to judge whether your own track is 'good' from the point of view of sounding similar to a professional track or has energy and enough variety throughout the course of the track; it's perhaps more difficult to judge whether a love song for example will induce romantic feelings in the listener (as many Barry White songs do for example) or whether a track will create a desired effect of aggression and power (as tracks from The Downward Spiral do).

The difference I refer to perhaps is between music that sounds professional and music that is filled with emotion. You may be able to judge your track for it's technical quality but how to judge for it's emotional quality after 30 - 40 hours of listening? Maybe you will never become jaded by a really emotional piece of music? I wouldn't know since I've never produced one.
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Old 20-02-2013, 12:25 AM   #17
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Is music about writing good or bad music as opposed to aiming for an emotional response to the best of your abilities? Also, don't both those things depend entirely on the listener? I will only go so far as to say the two types of music are music and not music (ironically 'not music' can still be an attempt at music, ergo there is only music), not good music and bad music... anyways...

Sometimes I will hear something and get no feeling from it whatsoever but that doesn't mean it's bad music. I won't go out of my way to tell someone it's terrible bad awful shitty poop music. I have always been of the opinion that you should write music for yourself. Music has never been a contest.

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Old 20-02-2013, 12:28 AM   #18
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

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Originally Posted by ZhanMuSi View Post
Excellent example! I'd never realised that some artists made tracks so closely similar; that's definitely an eye opener.

The examples of tracks and other things you mention make the point that a mainstream artist with financial backing will have a lot of people invested in and assisting them in the production of their tracks and those people around them are going to help keep them on the right track. Similarly, any artist producing for film, tv, or video games no doubt will have other people (directors, producers, etc.) also as a check on what they are producing and no doubt letting them know when the music they are producing isn't having the desired emotional or mood effects.

It's perhaps harder for a computer musician who is an artist for pleasure and doesn't play live to judge the effect of a piece of music though; and perhaps harder to judge whether a piece of music will have a desired emotional effect on a listener. It's fairly easy to judge whether your own track is 'good' from the point of view of sounding similar to a professional track or has energy and enough variety throughout the course of the track; it's perhaps more difficult to judge whether a love song for example will induce romantic feelings in the listener (as many Barry White songs do for example) or whether a track will create a desired effect of aggression and power (as tracks from The Downward Spiral do).

The difference I refer to perhaps is between music that sounds professional and music that is filled with emotion. You may be able to judge your track for it's technical quality but how to judge for it's emotional quality after 30 - 40 hours of listening? Maybe you will never become jaded by a really emotional piece of music? I wouldn't know since I've never produced one.
Actually, it's obvious. Many artists do that. Remember Pakito/Basshunter/Barthezz?
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Old 20-02-2013, 01:53 AM   #19
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

Punkerzparadise: No, I don't remember, I've only heard of Basshunter but never heard any of his music knowingly. I'm not a highly skilled musician or composer and maybe even listener so it was not obvious to me. Those 2 Jessie J tracks sounded similar to me more so than perhaps many other pairs of songs I've listened to; I've heard tracks by different artists that sounded very similar, and even seemed to be undeclared reworkings, but rarely noticed tracks by the same artist that were so similar. Now that it has been pointed out to me I can think of examples (The Supremes two earliest hits for example are remarkably similar) but I'd never considered those similarities were a marketing ploy previously.

Broton: experience suggests to me that there are criteria which you can define music as being either good or bad or somewhere in between. Firstly, I believe most people would agree that a recording can be good, bad or middling; listening to a number of tracks from different decades in order easily demonstrates that; it's simple to discern the improvements in clarity of sounds and wideness of the stereo spectrum, etc. However, since I was deliberately avoiding the discussion of the quality of production, and focussing on the emotional quality of a track, I will discount that for the moment and focus on whether a piece of music can be good or bad or middling regardless of it's presentation on record.

You mention that it does depend on the listener; and I agree that there is a large element of subjectivity. Many people would disagree on whether a genre of music is good or bad, or whether an artist is good or bad; but generally they are discussing whether they like a type of music or not, and this I believe will generally come down to their previous experience of music; they favor certain types over others because of their familiarity or lack of. I think we can discount these judgements as a basis for deciding whether there can be good or bad music.

On the other hand; music and composition can be taught, learned and criticised. If all music is equally good or bad; what basis would there be for teaching composition, learning it, and how could anyone criticise it. If all music is equally good; are my 3 chord progressions as good as Holst's Planets? In fact, if all music is equally good; then why isn't tapping any series of chords on a piano as good as Holst's Planets? It may then be argued that to be music a series of sounds has to acheive certain criteria; wouldn't that suggest that any two pieces of music could then be compared against those criteria and found a better of worse fit for them?

From feeling alone, I believe that I can judge music to be better or worse (with an element of subjectivity too; I don't agree that absolutely everyone would agree with me in all cases). When listening to some artists music throughout their careers I can often pick out a period of their work that I feel is most mature and expert, and compare it to earlier works that feel less complete and rounded or later works that might induce less of an emotional response. Music critics also write similar descriptions of the careers of artists. I also feel that there are plenty of pieces of music by many artists that achieve a level of perfection that I can't imagine could be improved upon.

My own opinion has evolved slowly over time (and I'm perhaps only becoming fully aware of it while writing this) that there is an upper standard of music whereby a piece of music can sound perfect; it will demand repeated listening and each time (at least for many times over though perhaps with an ultimate limit to how long it can be endured without becoming slightly boring) will produce an emotional effect in the listener.

In that sense, music can be seen as a contest; it's not a contest against other artists for popularity or money but instead a struggle to form from nothing a piece of art that would appear to be perfect to another listener.
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Old 20-02-2013, 02:21 AM   #20
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Re: Do You Know If Your Track Is Good?

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Originally Posted by ZhanMuSi View Post
On the other hand; music and composition can be taught, learned and criticised. If all music is equally good or bad; what basis would there be for teaching composition, learning it, and how could anyone criticise it?

If all music is equally good; are my 3 chord progressions as good as Holst's Planets?

In fact, if all music is equally good; then why isn't tapping any series of chords on a piano as good as Holst's Planets? It may then be argued that to be music a series of sounds has to acheive certain criteria; wouldn't that suggest that any two pieces of music could then be compared against those criteria and found a better of worse fit for them?
I wanted to touch on this paragraph in particular, and not to be ignorant of what you wrote in it's entirety because I love what you wrote.

Yes, there are indeed rules and guidelines that we teach, the basic elements or tools we use to create a standardized definition of music, such as timbre, rhythm, tempo, and so forth. A lot of these guidelines are just based on what we have found to be audibly pleasing throughout our existence, they are terms for how our minds interpret and break apart sounds we hear. Even [music that sounds] "displeasing" fall into these functions for interpreting sound as music (atonal, dissonant, etc). Any sort of criticism after that point is entirely subjective.

I would argue somewhat cynically that in comparison, your 3 chord progressions are simply less complex, and likely of a different context entirely than Holst's Planets. I would just say it's really simple. I would also re-establish that there is no "all music is equally good" because I am saying that there is no good or bad.

Is tapping any series of chords on a piano at random any different from your example? I think you would say that yes, it is very different in both context and complexity and consideration for the elements of music. Once again the guidelines and tools for composing music are already there, they're natural or inherent, that is the basis in which we compare all music, to nature.

There is a lot of flux in music today, the advent of electronic music has completely blown our tonal and compositional standard apart, and even making possible more complex rhythms and melodies that are simply impossible for most people to play.

Arghhh, I love you IDMF.
Footnote: this is all just opinion
it felt really good to type that out though

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