Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music
You are Unregistered, please register to gain Full access.    
Advertisements


Tutorials Section Found or written an interesting tutorial recently? Share it here.

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 29-12-2011, 02:24 PM   #1
Keef Baker
IDMf Artist
Keef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MC
Keef Baker's Avatar
Leeds
Posts: 1,054
MC Status: 10176330
Thanks: 5
Thanked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

t's a bit quiet today so I thought, during the day I'll write this guide to using live instruments in electronic music. After all, I use them a lot and people have asked before how i get them to mix without much bother, so here we go..
*
*
1: Recording
*
For a number of reasons including my neighbours I don't mic up an amp and record it that way. The way I see it, if you record from an amp with a mic you are permanently striping that guitar track with the addition/removal of frequencies and harmonics that may, during mixdown not work that well in the end. In the box amp simulators are very good these days, especuially inside a complex mix.
*
In this case I'm not saying that is how you SHOULD do it, just that's how *I* do it. Micing an amp may work for you, I just can't really do it in my house and prefer the flexibility i get from doing the work inside my DAW. If you have an awesome hardware valve amp then, of course use the damn thing!
*
When it comes to acoustic instruments, obviously you have to use a mic and here there's a few things you need to think about when using your mic aside from not sticking it up your ass.
*
background noise:
If you're recording in the room with your comupter and it has a loud fan then make sure you're the hell away from it and if you use a condenser mic then preferably you'll want to use a gate in your DAW once it's recorded because it WILL pick up stuff. And use headphones for gods sakes!
*
Input Level:
Basically make sure the input is as loud as it can be without distorting the signal (unless you want that) this will reduce the amount of background noise from cables, electrics, all the rubbish you don't want.
*
movement:
If you're close micing with a dynamic like a shure SM57/SM58 etc then resist that temptation to perform like you're on stage. Every movement you make changes the mics position relative to your instrument which will result in changes in the frequency spectrum that you'd rather not spend half an hour automating EQ plugins to fix.
*
*
2: Performance.
*
Ok, this is the Duke of New York, A number One. If you're an incredibly accomplished instrumentalist then you can probably skip this bit except for the "Don't play above your ability" section, which, I'm afraid, applies even to YOU.
*
There are a few factors here, emotion, dynamics, note choices and timing. You could argue emotion ties all these together but unless you've been playing for years, you'll need to put a bit of thought in first so...
*
Dynamics:
As in "how hard do you hit stuff"
With this you need to think about the musical surroundings, is it a soft track? If so then battering the strings or drum is a likely to be a bad idea unless you're doing it for a specific reason, conversely if it's a powernoise track then fingerpicked soft acoustic guitar or soft harp might not work UNLESS that's exactly what you're going for.
Think of dynamics like keyboard velocity or if you don't use velocity think about dynamics like raising or lowering the cutoff frequency of a synth, especially as live instruments make brighter sounds the harder you hit them because the high frequency content increases and travels better.
*
Note Choices:
The great thing about using real instruments is, partially, the ability to comfortably improvise, but as always, keep it appropriate. If the rest of your track is sludgey then a widdly widdly solo is unlikely to work. Think of using your instrument the way you would a synth part, as part of the whole rather than the focus because that's how you want people to hear it. Sometimes playing one note where you want to put 20 is the better choice.
*
Timing:
Big deal this one.
This is the main reason most peoples live instruments sound like they've been badly crowbarred in. You have a metronomic programmed background and in order to fit in with that you have to be accurate... Not pin accurate but accurate ENOUGH. Also the more metronomic your background the more accurate you have to be. If everything is loose timing wise it won't sound out of place but if everything else is machine accurate and you're not close enough it'll stand out like a sore thumb up a badgers backside.
*
Don't be afraid to record many times and cut out good bits and move them around. It's not the 80s any more you don't have to one take the whole song.
*
Your other options are humanise your midi tracks or use timestretching to pull your performance in time. Now these obviously affect either the whole track or the sound of your performance in some way. You might WANT the altered and odd sound you get from a timestretched instrument as it might work better for your track. Of course it might ruin it too, depends on the track.
*
If your best performance is still slightly off timewise you might be able to save it by cutting high frequencies. In my experience the human ear is more sensitive to timing errors at high frequencies. And talking of timing...
*
Don't play above your ability:
The closer you get to the edge of your standard as an instrumentalist the more your timing goes out the window and the more it just... sounds... awful...
People are more impressed by something simple played well than badly played widdle. Even if it's well played widdle, sorry, nobody cares.
That's right.
*
Yhat complex lick you learned? Not bothered, sorry.
*
Remember Yngwie Malmsteen? Yeah, rubbish wasn't he.
*
You don't want to be Yngwie Malmsteen do you?
*
Emotion:
Get comfortable with your part and try and put some soul into it. Preferably get to the point when you "go blind" or are "in the zone". Basically everything else in the world will disappear and you won't even realize you've been playing if you get this perfect.
But don't worry if you don't. You can record a great part without going blind and your ears will tell you whether it sucks or not when you listen back.
*
*
3: Processing
*
Ok, listen to what you've recorded.
First thing you notice is it doesn't sound as pristine as a sample library. Reason being is that sample libraries are already processed in a studio, mic'd up perfectly with hyper expensive mics and then compressed with really nice hardware compressors. Also your part has been played by a human, so the performance will be much more dynamic on your recording unless you have gods own sample library.
*
Now, one thing you DO need is some form of dynamics processing. Whether that be a compressor, overdrive, distortion or bitcrusher but when you use these bear in mind one thing...
*
If you've been used to doing everything in the box before you'll suddenly discover this thing called "noise".
*
If you've done your best to remove this at the recording stage it should be fairly minimal and a mix of using a gate and chopping out the audio when there is nothing should be enough to fix it. Make sure you put the gate before ANYTHING else otherwise any kind of processing will alter the signal and effect the noise too, possibly increasing it.
*
Now, we have audio we can work with...
*
So treat it like anything else, use the same reverbs, echos, fx, chopping. At this point stop thinking of it as a real instrument and just treat it like any other piece of source material. Want to filter sweep it? Go for it. Sidechain it to the bassdrum? Sure.
*
One way to make sure your instrument feels out of place is to treat it differently to the rest of your mix. Once it's in it is simply source material. Tear it to pieces, saturate it, grain it, flange it, treat it the way you would a drum loop or bass part or synth part.
*
*
So there we go... a short but TL;DR guide to the basics of using real instruments in electronic tracks.
*
Now feel free to tell me how I'm doing it wrong, internet... after all.. IT'S WHAT YOU'RE BEST AT!!!1!!!

Last edited by lolirl; 30-12-2011 at 02:50 PM..

Advertisements


------------------
Updated spotify list of all the stuff I've been involved with here:
And bandcamp for stuff I wouldn't even go to a record company with here: https://keefbaker.bandcamp.com/
There's other stuff out there but I can't be fucked to list it.
Keef Baker is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2011, 03:15 PM   #2
Dataf1ow
IDMf Artist
Dataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MCDataf1ow is a savage MC
Dataf1ow's Avatar
Posts: 1,552
MC Status: 47764252
Thanks: 94
Thanked 242 Times in 157 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Nice post Keef- it's nice to hear that I am not the only one that approaches real instruments in a similar way. I agree with all of your points throughout this guide, especially the parts about recording and performance. It took me a while to realize that no one gives a fuck if I can shred a nasty bass solo, that's not the point of my music anymore. haha. Yngwie malmsteen- what a jerk

------------------
Dataf1ow is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2011, 04:53 PM   #3
chasedobson
IDMf Artist
chasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MCchasedobson is a savage MC
chasedobson's Avatar
Denver, CO
Posts: 3,321
MC Status: 1542477
Thanks: 1,088
Thanked 2,085 Times in 1,331 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

you could have saved me years of frustration by posting this in 2002...

great writeup!

------------------
chasedobson is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2011, 08:36 PM   #4
Solarite
-
Solarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MC
Solarite's Avatar
Mid
Age: 29
Posts: 1,092
MC Status: 63769944
Thanks: 95
Thanked 105 Times in 78 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Cheers for that. I started recording before producing electronic music, so I'm not exactly a noob, but you definitely reinforced the "don't play above your ability" point.

I've been struggling to get a good bass guitar take for a tough part (tough for me, anyway), so I've seriously been considering recording it on keyboard at a 10% compromise on instrumentation, rather than settle for a 50% compromise on recording quality.
Solarite is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2011, 09:37 PM   #5
surgeongeneral
Eternal Echoer
surgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MCsurgeongeneral is a savage MC
surgeongeneral's Avatar
Posts: 859
MC Status: 12446483
Thanks: 116
Thanked 234 Times in 176 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarite View Post
I've been struggling to get a good bass guitar take for a tough part (tough for me, anyway), so I've seriously been considering recording it on keyboard at a 10% compromise on instrumentation, rather than settle for a 50% compromise on recording quality.
Maybe layer the two and filter them so the keys are holding down the sub with the real bass on top? I've had decent results with that approach. I like to use a simpler line for the sub than the real bass.
surgeongeneral is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2011, 09:59 PM   #6
Solarite
-
Solarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MC
Solarite's Avatar
Mid
Age: 29
Posts: 1,092
MC Status: 63769944
Thanks: 95
Thanked 105 Times in 78 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by surgeongeneral View Post
Maybe layer the two and filter them so the keys are holding down the sub with the real bass on top? I've had decent results with that approach. I like to use a simpler line for the sub than the real bass.
Doesn't really fix the problem though. I'd still want the top layer to sound good.

I'd probably be able to play it if my hands weren't so damn cold...
Solarite is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 29-12-2011, 10:25 PM   #7
mischjok
Guy with a computer
mischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MC
mischjok's Avatar
Not German
Posts: 3,548
MC Status: 65762841
Thanks: 371
Thanked 164 Times in 135 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Nice post. I am all for using real instruments in electronic music. Here´s some things I would like to add to keef´s post:

1-Recording:

1.1. Amps and FX
Amp emulations are never as good as the true thing. Sure, you may bypass whatever FX pedal or processing unit you´re using (such as a POD, which I use) and load some impulses into the guitar channel, but since those impulses are pretty much static, you´ll end up losing character and harmonics.

If you decide to mic your good-sounding amp, be sure to either isolate the amp or have your recording room acoustically isolated, so that the mic won´t capture unneccesary ambient noises (but who knows, you´re probably going for a more "realistic" vibe).

Try not to record "too hot". That is, make sure the input signal isn´t clipping, or else you´ll have problems adjusting dynamics and levels.

Don´t be afraid to use the built-in effects on your daw for interesting sound design. You may bypass all fx loaded on your FX pedal or amp, and use exclusively the fx offered to you by the DAW in question. You may also mix both pedals and DAW-fx for warmer sounding tracks.

2-Performance

2.1-Timing

If your timing tends to be off, try to practice along to backing tracks, jam tracks or your favourite songs. It will be more rewarding and musical than practicing a bunch of uninteresting licks along to a metronome´s annoying click (for hours).

Train your mind to recognize different kinds of meters. Fuck 4/4. Try writing or playing something in 15/16 (just for the lulz) and make your way across other odd-meters. Train yourself to be more flexible. It may sound weird, but some people can´t really play in meters other than 4/4 (oontz oontz oontz). Go for "some-number-on-the-floor" meters and also change the tempo you´re used to. Don´t forget that 140 bpm isn´t the only speed your DAW and your ears can appreciate.

2.2.Note-choice

The worst thing you can do is pull a Malmsteen and stick to a boring diatonic scale and write songs made up of that same boring harmonic minor lick you have been playing for the last 10 years.. There are many scales out there, interesting ones, waiting for YOU to use them.
mischjok is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 12:34 AM   #8
oly
IDMf Artist
oly is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MC
oly's Avatar
socialism twitter
Age: 27
Posts: 12,137
MC Status: 471672751
Thanks: 2,889
Thanked 2,468 Times in 1,693 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mischjok View Post
1.1. Amps and FX
Amp emulations are never as good as the true thing. Sure, you may bypass whatever FX pedal or processing unit you´re using (such as a POD, which I use) and load some impulses into the guitar channel, but since those impulses are pretty much static, you´ll end up losing character and harmonics.

2.1-Timing

If your timing tends to be off, try to practice along to backing tracks, jam tracks or your favourite songs. It will be more rewarding and musical than practicing a bunch of uninteresting licks along to a metronome´s annoying click (for hours).
about the first point: that's sorta opposite to what he was already saying in his post isn't it? there are some awesome amp emulations, they don't sound exactly like real amps but they do sound great.

about the second: jamming is more fun, but it is NOT a good way to improve timing. Slow practice to a metronome is. Or even a good solid drum loop or something, but something fairly static. No it's not what people want to hear, but slow practice is absolutely necessary for fast accuracy.



and in response to Keef: good tips in there, although i disagree that 'Even if it's well played widdle, sorry, nobody cares.'It all depends on who is listening... I love to hear some good shredding now and then, especially when it's in an unexpected place. but it is easy to do bad, sooo... :v

------------------
oly is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 12:51 AM   #9
Solarite
-
Solarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MC
Solarite's Avatar
Mid
Age: 29
Posts: 1,092
MC Status: 63769944
Thanks: 95
Thanked 105 Times in 78 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghytwembpang View Post

about the second: jamming is more fun, but it is NOT a good way to improve timing.
Of course it is.
Solarite is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 12:58 AM   #10
oly
IDMf Artist
oly is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MC
oly's Avatar
socialism twitter
Age: 27
Posts: 12,137
MC Status: 471672751
Thanks: 2,889
Thanked 2,468 Times in 1,693 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarite View Post
Of course it is.
It's a great way to build improvisational skills, help train your ear, learn song structure... but timing is not one of the things it's good practice for.

That's not to say you can't improve timing by jamming, because you can, but it's not as effective as proper timing practice. Like, with a metronome, playing licks and scales over and over, slowly, gradually building up speed as you form solid muscle memory.

------------------
oly is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 01:11 AM   #11
mischjok
Guy with a computer
mischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MC
mischjok's Avatar
Not German
Posts: 3,548
MC Status: 65762841
Thanks: 371
Thanked 164 Times in 135 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

@^ : are musicians playing with metronomes or other musicians? If you want to sound like a robot, sure, you go and practice with a metronome.
mischjok is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 02:07 AM   #12
oly
IDMf Artist
oly is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MC
oly's Avatar
socialism twitter
Age: 27
Posts: 12,137
MC Status: 471672751
Thanks: 2,889
Thanked 2,468 Times in 1,693 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

that's stupid. first off, the thread IS about playing with robots essentially; it's about recording for use in electronic music. And second, that honestly sounds to me like a shitty excuse for having bad timing. You'll sound like a robot if you play with no feel; sometime feel comes from timing being off slighting in certain ways. That's cool and if you have really good timing you can intentionally play off, for example slightly behind the beat for a dragging sort of effect... but if you have bad timing, you're stuck playing off.

If you don't give a fuck about having solid time by all means don't use a metronome. if you want to have rock solid timing consistently you HAVE to practice to a metronome, properly, starting off slow and building up speed gradually. That's how muscle memory works, and playing an instrument is 99% muscle memory.

------------------
oly is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 01:44 PM   #13
Solarite
-
Solarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MCSolarite is a savage MC
Solarite's Avatar
Mid
Age: 29
Posts: 1,092
MC Status: 63769944
Thanks: 95
Thanked 105 Times in 78 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghytwembpang View Post
that's stupid. first off, the thread IS about playing with robots essentially; it's about recording for use in electronic music. And second, that honestly sounds to me like a shitty excuse for having bad timing. You'll sound like a robot if you play with no feel; sometime feel comes from timing being off slighting in certain ways. That's cool and if you have really good timing you can intentionally play off, for example slightly behind the beat for a dragging sort of effect... but if you have bad timing, you're stuck playing off.

If you don't give a fuck about having solid time by all means don't use a metronome. if you want to have rock solid timing consistently you HAVE to practice to a metronome, properly, starting off slow and building up speed gradually. That's how muscle memory works, and playing an instrument is 99% muscle memory.
mischjok is good at guitar.
Solarite is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 01:57 PM   #14
mischjok
Guy with a computer
mischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MC
mischjok's Avatar
Not German
Posts: 3,548
MC Status: 65762841
Thanks: 371
Thanked 164 Times in 135 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghytwembpang View Post
that's stupid. first off, the thread IS about playing with robots essentially; it's about recording for use in electronic music. And second, that honestly sounds to me like a shitty excuse for having bad timing. You'll sound like a robot if you play with no feel; sometime feel comes from timing being off slighting in certain ways. That's cool and if you have really good timing you can intentionally play off, for example slightly behind the beat for a dragging sort of effect... but if you have bad timing, you're stuck playing off.

If you don't give a fuck about having solid time by all means don't use a metronome. if you want to have rock solid timing consistently you HAVE to practice to a metronome, properly, starting off slow and building up speed gradually. That's how muscle memory works, and playing an instrument is 99% muscle memory.
I don´t know you, but I always thought that by recording real instruments, you bring a certain "organic" feel to music that is otherwise yeah, robotic. If you like contrast, you´ll certainly dig a guitar or a bass or some percussion that hasn´t been quantized to extremes. If I wanted a latin percussion section to sound real, I wouldn´t care much about it being as tight as a 16-year-old school girl (catholic), but about it sounding souldfull and "free".

I never said bad timing was a virtue. I just said that we humans are not machines and will never be as tight as a synth you programmed by sticking to the piano roll´s grid. Your post is funny because you´re basically contradicting yourself at times.

By the way, that argument of "muscle memory" is as ill-fated as it gets. Playing out of "muscle-memory" means you´ll sound like a meat machine programmed to blast off as many notes as possible without no feel or touch. That´s what people do when they "shred", hell I´ve been accused of that sometimes, too! It´s not a good thing to develop muscle memory, as you call it.

The best, I believe, is to start building chops and clock them by using a metronome. When your playing is good and tight enough, you´ll want to play with real musicians or backing tracks.
mischjok is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 02:36 PM   #15
oly
IDMf Artist
oly is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MColy is a savage MC
oly's Avatar
socialism twitter
Age: 27
Posts: 12,137
MC Status: 471672751
Thanks: 2,889
Thanked 2,468 Times in 1,693 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

I never said you said bad timing was a virtue, nor did I say that anyone should be as accurate as a machine when they play. I said that jamming to songs is not good practice for working on timing.

Where exactly do I contradict myself? You said that practicing with a metronome will make you play like a robot with no feel. I said that's bullshit, and that practicing with a metronome is essential to building solid timing and efficient muscle memory and thus enabling yourself to play quickly and accurately.

and playing from muscle memory doesn't mean you'll sound robotic or without feel, it just means that you don't have to focus to do certain things. It means your arm and your hand and your fingers automatically know where to be when you want to say do a lick in the 13th position starting on the A string running up to the B and then sliding down back to the main riff in 4th position. Since the motion is automatic you have more time to be thinking of how you want to phrase the lick exactly, or about how that cute girl in the audience is making eyes at you, or that you want teriyaki and beer for breakfast.

Muscle memory doesn't make people sound static when they play, playing statically makes people sound static when they play; i've heard shred machines sound flat and static and I've heard really basic players sound static and flat, and I've also heard both classes of player play it like it's all they're born to do and not a damn thing else matters. If you rely on nothing BUT muscle memory yeah you're probably gonna sound pretty generic... i guess you could say it's equivalent to chucking down a basic synth sound and barely automating it the whole track. anyone can learn the basics of how to work a synth and doodle up a song with one, but it takes thought to add articulation so that it's compelling to listen to. Likewise anyone can learn to string a couple riffs in a minor scale together but it takes thought to articulate it in a compelling way.

in a way yeah you're right, but the way you're saying it is what i have an issue with; it's never a bad thing to develop muscle memory, in fact it's completely unavoidable as when you do something over and over you imprint those motion patterns into your muscles. what's bad is developing a static muscle memory rife with bad physical habits, for example some people tense up in the shoulders a lot when they start playing and eventually that becomes natural to the body and if they try to relax it and play it's like having to relearn everything, because they have to put their focus into relaxing those muscles that are 'programmed' to be tense.



this is far too many words, i am way too fucking wordy. jegus.

------------------
oly is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 03:44 PM   #16
Keef Baker
IDMf Artist
Keef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MC
Keef Baker's Avatar
Leeds
Posts: 1,054
MC Status: 10176330
Thanks: 5
Thanked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Just to throw in, practising with a metronome is pretty much standard practise for classical musicians.

------------------
Updated spotify list of all the stuff I've been involved with here:
And bandcamp for stuff I wouldn't even go to a record company with here: https://keefbaker.bandcamp.com/
There's other stuff out there but I can't be fucked to list it.
Keef Baker is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #17
lolirl
Savage Mad Cunt
lolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MClolirl is a savage MC
lolirl's Avatar
Posts: 14,259
MC Status: 744046241
Thanks: 11,128
Thanked 7,578 Times in 4,677 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

And a lot of DAW users alike though to be fair.
lolirl is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 11:11 PM   #18
mischjok
Guy with a computer
mischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MC
mischjok's Avatar
Not German
Posts: 3,548
MC Status: 65762841
Thanks: 371
Thanked 164 Times in 135 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghytwembpang View Post
I said that jamming to songs is not good practice for working on timing.I said that's bullshit, and that practicing with a metronome is essential to building solid timing and efficient muscle memory and thus enabling yourself to play quickly and accurately. (1)

and playing from muscle memory doesn't mean you'll sound robotic or without feel, it just means that you don't have to focus to do certain things. It means your arm and your hand and your fingers automatically know where to be when you want to say do a lick in the 13th position starting on the A string running up to the B and then sliding down back to the main riff in 4th position. Since the motion is automatic you have more time to be thinking of how you want to phrase the lick exactly, or about how that cute girl in the audience is making eyes at you, or that you want teriyaki and beer for breakfast.(2)

. If you rely on nothing BUT muscle memory yeah you're probably gonna sound pretty generic... i guess you could say it's equivalent to chucking down a basic synth sound and barely automating it the whole track. anyone can learn the basics of how to work a synth and doodle up a song with one, but it takes thought to add articulation so that it's compelling to listen to. Likewise anyone can learn to string a couple riffs in a minor scale together but it takes thought to articulate it in a compelling way. (2)

it's never a bad thing to develop muscle memory, in fact it's completely unavoidable as when you do something over and over you imprint those motion patterns into your muscles. what's bad is developing a static muscle memory rife with bad physical habits, for example some people tense up in the shoulders a lot when they start playing and eventually that becomes natural to the body and if they try to relax it and play it's like having to relearn everything, because they have to put their focus into relaxing those muscles that are 'programmed' to be tense (3)
.
(1) It´s not like that piece of advice is coming from me. It´s actually something I have heard or read from some established guitarists. Sure, practicing along to a metronome´s static and annoying click will help you clock your playing and develop speed (given that you increase the tempo every once in a while), but it won´t do anything for your creativity or flexibility while playing. On the other hand, you can develop all three things (timing, creativity, and flexibility) when jamming IN TIME to your favourite songs. I know guitarists who exclusively practiced with a metronome for years and had lots of problems getting along with a jam band because they couldn´t come to terms with tempo changes, swing and shuffle rhythms. Now that´s a pity.

(2) As I said, muscle memory will most likely make you prefer those positions imprinted into your muscle memory (so to speak) and not take risks while playing or improvising. I think one of the worst things you can actually do is sticking to those patterns you already know and can play well instead of playing the same notes (or other notes) on other strings, with different techniques and so on.

(3) So you do acknowledge static, monotone-sounding patterns of playing are often a byproduct of muscle memory. I also know that bad habits are also quite often a result of playing along to a metronome for hours. It´s not music. It´s just exercises. You´re a musician, not an ...exercisian?
mischjok is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 11:22 PM   #19
Keef Baker
IDMf Artist
Keef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MCKeef Baker is a savage MC
Keef Baker's Avatar
Leeds
Posts: 1,054
MC Status: 10176330
Thanks: 5
Thanked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

------------------
Updated spotify list of all the stuff I've been involved with here:
And bandcamp for stuff I wouldn't even go to a record company with here: https://keefbaker.bandcamp.com/
There's other stuff out there but I can't be fucked to list it.
Keef Baker is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 30-12-2011, 11:27 PM   #20
mischjok
Guy with a computer
mischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MCmischjok is a savage MC
mischjok's Avatar
Not German
Posts: 3,548
MC Status: 65762841
Thanks: 371
Thanked 164 Times in 135 Posts
Re: Keefs guide to real instruments in electronic music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keef Baker View Post
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Ör ä dög.

Advertisements

mischjok is offline   Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:17 PM.


Electronic Music Forums

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.