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Old 16-02-2015, 06:34 AM   #41
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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Buddhism makes no sense to me as it's irreconcilable with nature. Human enlightenment is not achieved by denying human nature. It's achieved by being human. Pacifism is great, if you are a rock or a tree. It's not so good if you are a predator. That's why I hate people who support "free Tibet" because the very idea of freeing Tibet goes against the principles of Tibetan Buddhism (hence why they haven't freed themselves).

You accept your place in the world and you fulfil it. The only uncertainties any of you feel is because you're not doing. That's why people seek enlightenment because they're idle. If they'd just busied themselves with doing they'd have realised that enlightenment is right in front of them every fucking day.
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Old 16-02-2015, 08:13 AM   #42
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

I put my faith in things I can change and have the power to change. Mostly that is really myself, or I may be able to influence people I come in contact with. That's really it.
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Old 16-02-2015, 08:53 AM   #43
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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Buddhism makes no sense to me as it's irreconcilable with nature. Human enlightenment is not achieved by denying human nature. It's achieved by being human. Pacifism is great, if you are a rock or a tree. It's not so good if you are a predator. That's why I hate people who support "free Tibet" because the very idea of freeing Tibet goes against the principles of Tibetan Buddhism (hence why they haven't freed themselves).
Well, I'm not sure about that. After having watched a few documentaries, the story seems to be that the Tibetans were vastly overrun by the Chinese invasion. There was some armed resistance, but not nearly enough to make much of a difference towards what was really a horrendously brutal onslaught. The Chinese policy was to pulverize the very will of the people pretty much as brutally as they could. So could they free themselves? The Chinese have tried to beat, torture and murder the very idea out of their minds. The only reason the Dalai Lama isn't a prisoner or worse is that he, along with many other Tibetans, escaped to India.

That's what I've heard, anyway. And I have done some research. Also, Pacifism is appealing if you're not the one doing the invading or exploiting. It's a social standard not to abuse one another. In my opinion it's a pretty logical standard of amelioration/transition out of a jungle type situation, and establish a standard of civilization that eases suffering for all. You could say it's pacifism vs barbarism. A wild creature may have a very specific role as a predator in an ecosystem, but it'd be nice to think human beings are more versatile than that, the predatory instinct is undeniably there but it's a part of a larger suite of behaviors, one would hope that by shaping culture or mores one can at least do something to help emphasize more altruistic tendencies, and thereby reduce suffering.

And that's a major theme of Tibetan Buddhism. If you're too cynical, you may never know.

Last edited by cirric; 16-02-2015 at 08:58 AM..

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Old 16-02-2015, 09:02 AM   #44
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Old 16-02-2015, 12:08 PM   #45
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Old 16-02-2015, 07:53 PM   #46
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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Just speaking my mind on various things in thread.

About psychedelics and hebrews. I always found moses finding I AM in the burning bush interesting. But to say you need drugs to achieve enlightenment or greater spirituality I think is bull. It could be an illusion of connection you know. Not saying that it must be just that it can be. I think its individual and peoples paths are different. If something good comes from something then why not.
Completely agree on all points. I think part of the beauty of it is that we all have our own paths to get where we're going. This shite Douglas Munroe book said a few valuable things, one of which is, "All roads lead to god." which I think reflects the same sentiment.

For me, psychedelics have factored in to great degree. But it's worth noting that 9 out of 10 of my friends who (i thought/assumed) were discovering many of the same things ended up in deluded places with those substances. However, I would offer conjecture that, in fact, this is due more to the lack of a social framework upon which those lessons can be hung. Most of the people who I grew up doing psychedelics with were forced to sort of start at zero and figure it out on their own. There was very little guidance from elders, and what "elders" there were, were largely neophytes themselves; kids not much older than us who built a rather dumbed down expectation of "seeing fucked up shit". Never did their personal narratives include hints as to the existential questions that would be raised by so dramatically shifting our, typically monocular view of the reality in which we take part, to stereoscopic. (There's another tantalizing idea here that the death and rebirth metaphors in many faiths and philosophies such as Egyptian myths, Christian tradition, and even Freemasonry are really about being raised up into a new life through ego death from sacramental use of ego dissolving substances...but that's another tributary of this stream)

I think had someone been there to guide us through the sometimes difficult reflections we see of ourselves, our peers, and our world through those experiences, and were they given the respect they deserved instead of seen as a way to make a Saturday night interesting, the results may have been better than 1:10 success.

Last edited by PhantomSignal; 16-02-2015 at 08:02 PM.. Reason: extrapolation
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Old 16-02-2015, 09:06 PM   #48
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

Yes, that also draws parallels between death and rebirth and the psychedelic experience. Also noteworthy that it implies that Leary understood the same thing, that people in that movement (the psychedelics explosion in America) should have some framework for understanding these experiences.

However, I think I remember reading that the book and I think there was an album even, caused lots of bad trips, LOL. American college students eating acid had never really had to confront death in such a way as the ancients who wrote it some 650 or so years earlier. With Vietnam expanding (the Gulf of Tonkin incident was the same year that the book was published) I think death was a very real possibility for many of the people eating LSD and following this guide. So while the intentions are there, the consciousness of modern humans didn't really deal with the metaphors of death and rebirth in the same way as the texts original authors. In that sense, I believe it was a huge, well-intended, but ultimately doomed, failure.
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Old 16-02-2015, 09:11 PM   #49
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

All this talk about using psychedelics just made me think of this:

“We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.”

Hunter Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

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Old 16-02-2015, 09:17 PM   #50
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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All this talk about using psychedelics just made me think of this:

“We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.”

Hunter Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
Amen to that. One of my favorite HST passages.

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Old 16-02-2015, 09:17 PM   #51
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the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.
And add to that the culture from which they were breaking: largely Christian conservatism.
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Old 16-02-2015, 09:38 PM   #52
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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And add to that the culture from which they were breaking: largely Christian conservatism.
Yea. To be clear I'm not sure how I feel about psychedelics. I've basically either had weak or bad experiences with them. I just always think of that quote when there is a discussion of using psychedelics for spiritual purposes.

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Old 16-02-2015, 09:43 PM   #53
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Yea. To be clear I'm not sure how I feel about psychedelics. I've basically either had weak or bad experiences with them. I just always think of that quote when there is a discussion of using psychedelics for spiritual purposes.
Sure...definitely not a panacea for spiritual enlightenment....and I should add, they have given me some pretty challenging moments too.

Last edited by PhantomSignal; 16-02-2015 at 09:44 PM.. Reason: sometimes trips are bad.
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Old 16-02-2015, 11:25 PM   #54
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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Indeed, I tend to think of it as a reactionary movement that never really found a solid foundation, or whatever. Partially the US government is to blame for its preposterous ban on psychedelics. And war on drugs in general.
You know I've met some people who used to synthesize LSD (or I should say, at least claim to), as I understand it it's one of the more difficult drugs to make, but with some effort it can be done for sure. I think we most definitely keep it out of the clinic at our peril. Endless vicissitudes of prohibition, and culturally we're still very much reeling from unfortunate decisions regarding drug policy made decades ago. One symptom is the atrocities that keep happening again and again by cartels. :/

It's a touchy subject for sure, but anyway that's my semi educated take on the thing.
Well, "mind-manifestation" has never been a friend to orthodoxy and bureaucracy. A lot of people's work and life missions would be obsolete should a true psychedelic revolution take place.

And yes, I totally agree that prohibition CREATES the same black markets, high risk, and high profits that give the cartels their incentive, which the Gov then blames FOR the drug problem, leaving out the whole demand side of that free market economy. They should have learned from the diamond industry or Saudi Arabia, LOL: Limit supply and you create an inflated market where extreme profit margins make people do extreme things to reap the rewards.

The alcohol cartels during prohibition could only exist because the Government was pinching the supply...but people still wanted their booze.

Also, as an aside LSA is pretty easily obtainable at your local organic gardening center . A million Aztec warriors can't be wrong, can they? Xochipili and all...
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Old 16-02-2015, 11:40 PM   #55
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Well, "mind-manifestation" has never been a friend to orthodoxy and bureaucracy. A lot of people's work and life missions would be obsolete should a true psychedelic revolution take place.

And yes, I totally agree that prohibition CREATES the same black markets, high risk, and high profits that give the cartels their incentive, which the Gov then blames FOR the drug problem, leaving out the whole demand side of that free market economy. They should have learned from the diamond industry or Saudi Arabia, LOL: Limit supply and you create an inflated market where extreme profit margins make people do extreme things to reap the rewards.

The alcohol cartels during prohibition could only exist because the Government was pinching the supply...but people still wanted their booze.

Also, as an aside LSA is pretty easily obtainable at your local organic gardening center . A million Aztec warriors can't be wrong, can they? Xochipili and all...
LSA is one of the only psychedelics I've tried that actually agreed with me. Most "spiritual" experience I've had on one if you don't count MDMA.

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Old 16-02-2015, 11:41 PM   #56
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

how can you achieve spiritual improvement by seeking stuff?
it certainly hasn't worked for this country.or myself.

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Old 17-02-2015, 12:01 AM   #57
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

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how can you achieve spiritual improvement by seeking stuff?
it certainly hasn't worked for this country.or myself.
"stuff" being material things?

I'd say that you are seeking spiritual distraction if your primary means of behaving spiritually involves "Things". This is as true of Crucifixes as it is Athames.
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:07 AM   #58
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

nice read if nothing else
http://www.oshorajneesh.com/download...er_No_Moon.pdf
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:14 AM   #59
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kanye is my jesus, dunno about you guys
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:58 AM   #60
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Re: Spiritual improvement/seeking stuff

i thought i'd post an excerpt from the link i posted as it says the same as jaded but in a ore explanatory way i guess

Quote:
THE NUN CHIYONO STUDIED FOR YEARS, BUT WAS UNABLE TO FIND ENLIGHTENMENT.
ONE NIGHT, SHE WAS CARRYING AN OLD PAIL FILLED WITH WATER. AS SHE WAS WALKING ALONG, SHE WAS WATCHING THE FULL MOON REFLECTED IN THE PAIL OF WATER.
SUDDENLY, THE BAMBOO STRIPS THAT HELD THE PAIL TOGETHER BROKE, AND THE PAIL
FELL APART. THE WATER RUSHED OUT; THE MOON’S REFLECTION DISAPPEARED – AND CHIYONO BECAME ENLIGHTENED. SHE WROTE THIS VERSE:
THIS WAY AND THAT WAY I TRIED TO KEEP THE PAIL TOGETHER, HOPING THE WEAK BAMBOO WOULD NEVER BREAK.
SUDDENLY THE BOTTOM FELL OUT. NO MORE WATER; NO MORE MOON IN THE WATER – EMPTINESS IN MY HAND.
Enlightenment is always sudden. There is no gradual progress towards it, because all gradualness belongs to the mind and enlightenment is not of the mind. All degrees belong to the mind and enlightenment is beyond it. So you cannot grow into enlightenment, you simply jump into it. You cannot move step by step; there are no steps. Enlightenment is just like an abyss, either you jump or you don’t jump.
You cannot have enlightenment in parts, in fragments. It is a totality – either you are in it or out of it, but there is no gradual progression. Remember this thing as one of the most basic: it happens unfragmented, complete, total. It happens as a whole, and that is the reason why mind is always incapable of understanding. Mind can understand anything which can be divided. Mind can understand anything which can be reached through installments, because mind is analysis, division, fragmentation. Mind can understand parts; the whole always eludes it. So if you listen to the mind you will never attain.
That’s what happened: this nun, Chiyono, studied for years and years and nothing happened. Mind can study about God, about enlightenment, about the ultimate. It can even pretend that everything has been understood. But God is not something you have to understand. Even if you know everything about God, you don’t know him; knowledge is not ’about’. Whenever you say ’about’, you belong to the outside. You may be moving round and round, but you have not entered the circle.
When someone says, ”I know about God,” he says he doesn’t know anything at all, because how can you know anything about God? God is the center, not the periphery. You can know about matter – because matter has no center in it, it is just the periphery. You cannot know about consciousness: there is no self, there is no one inside. Matter is only the outside; you can know about it. Science is knowledge. The very word science means knowledge – knowledge of the periphery, knowledge about something where the center doesn’t exist. Whenever the center is approached through the periphery, you miss it.
You have to become it; that is the only way to know it. Nothing can be known about God. You have to be; only being is knowledge there. With the ultimate, ’about and about’ means missing and missing again. You have to enter and become one.
That’s why Jesus says, ”God is like love” – not loving, but just like love. You cannot know anything about love, or can you? You can study and study, you can become a great scholar, but you have not touched, you have not penetrated. Love can be known only when you become a lover. Not only that: love can be known only when you become love. Even the lover disappears, because that too belongs to the outside. Two persons in love become absent. They are not there. Only love exists, the rhythm of love. There may be two poles of the rhythm but they are not there. Something of the beyond has come into being. They have disappeared.
Love exists when you are empty. Knowledge exists when you are filled. Knowledge belongs to the ego, and the ego can never penetrate to the center; it is the periphery. The periphery can know only the periphery. You cannot know something which is of the center through the ego. The ego can study, the ego can make you a great scholar, maybe a religious scholar, a great pundit. You may know all the Vedas, all the Upanishads, all the Bibles and Korans, and still you know nothing – because it is not knowledge from the outside, it is something which happens when you have entered and you have become one.
THE NUN CHIYONO STUDIED FOR YEARS...
She may have studied for lives. You have been studying for many lives. You have been moving and moving in a circle. But when somebody moves in a circle, a very great illusion is created: you feel you are progressing. You always feel you are moving, and you are still not going anywhere, because you are moving in a circle. You go on repeating. That is why Hindus have called this world samsara. Samsara means the wheel, the circular. You move and move and move and never reach anywhere, and you always feel that you are reaching. ”Now the goal is nearer because I have walked so much.” Just try moving in a big circle. You can never see it as a circle, because you know only part of it. So it is always a road, a way. This is what has been happening for many lives.


Chiyono studied and studied, BUT WAS UNABLE TO FIND ENLIGHTENMENT – not because enlightenment is difficult, but because when you study it you miss the whole point. You are on the wrong track. It is as if someone is trying to enter this room through the wall. Not that entering this room is difficult, but you have to enter through the door. If you try through the wall it looks difficult, almost impossible. It is not. It is you who are on the wrong track. Many, many people, whenever they start the journey, they start through study, through learning, through knowledge, information, philosophy, systems, theology. They start from the ’about’; then they are knocking against the wall.
Jesus says, ”Knock and the door shall be opened unto you.” But please remember if it is a door or not. Don’t go on knocking on the wall, otherwise no door shall be opened unto you. And, in fact, when you knock at the door, when you really reach near the door, you will find it has always been open. It has always been waiting for you. A door is a waiting, a door is a welcoming, a door is a receptivity. It has been waiting for you, and you have been knocking on the wall. What is the wall? When you start through knowledge and not through being, you are knocking at the wall.

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Anyone who wants to keep in contact for improvement purposes? smashingpoop Music Scene Chat 3 12-07-2012 10:15 PM
does ANYBODY bump the crunchy stuff?!? (Fake Blood, Clouds, Ado stuff?) secretstash Music Scene Chat 19 15-06-2012 10:34 PM
[Chill Out/old school] SPIRITUAL PROCESSOR - Jazzyspoon (free download) Jazzyspoon Listening Booth 3 27-08-2011 08:30 AM


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