Surround Mixing Techniques
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:06 AM   #1
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Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

We've just started our surround mixing tutorials this week and today we had a brief primer on surround mixing techniques. I thought some of you might be interested and may have some of your own techniques as well.

Considerations
These also apply when mixing in any format: Mono, Stereo, Surround

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- A louder sound will mask a softer sound that occupies the same frequency ranges.
- Original sound may become fused with reverb; increasing pre-delay allows the reverb to be isolated and thus more distinguishable from the original sound.

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- Any delay/reverb <= 40ms will fuse with the original sound
- In stereo or surround, the first sound you hear dictates the sound's placement; even if the delay/reverb is louder than the original sound.

1 foot = 1ms
- A more accurate sense of space can be achieved by applying this rule to reverbs and delays.

The Magic Surround
- When mixing music in surround, delaying the output to the surround speakers will give a larger sense of space to the sound.

Sound Positioning
These conventions mainly apply to film surround sound. But they are also relevant for surround music mixing.

Center - Dialogue and Sync FX
Left & Right - Music & Atmos FX
Surround - Atmos FX
Low Frequency Effects - Specific low frequency effects.

Cinema Mixes
Surround sound operates with a discrete center channel and not a phantom center as you find in stereo. A discrete center channel has its own audio track. Whereas a phantom center is implied by an even positioning between left and right.

Having a discrete center channel ensures that an accurate positional image is maintained regardless of where somebody is sitting in the audience. If surround sound relied on a phantom center, someone sitting close to the left or right of the cinema would perceive any dialogue or sync fx as coming from the left or right. The discrete center channel ensures that these elements will always be heard from the center of the screen.

The low frequency effect (LFE) is essentially a sub. However, like the center channel, this has its own discrete channel instead of employing the use of a crossover. Most cinema left, right and center speakers have a full range so a crossover is not necessary. In a home theater environment, a sub with crossover will usually be used to compensate for this lack of range.

DVD Mixes
The major advantage of mixing for cinema is that the soundtrack will always be played at 83dB spl. Mixing for DVD tends to be more difficult because you cannot mix for a specific [ Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register ]
. For audiences, this means that you'll either have to watch dvds with full sound, or deal with the fact that some sound may be obscured when playing back at lower levels.

Domestic surround systems usually don't have a matched front row of speakers. That is, the Left & Right tend to have the best range and output while the center is smaller and lower-range so that it can sit on top of the television. Some surround mixers thus choose to pan some of the center channel to the left and right channels. However, mostly they don't bother.

The best solution to this problem is to make sure the next surround system you purchase has full level control over each speaker set so that you can turn the center up and the left and right down in order to get a fuller sound.

Concert Mixes
Although mixing to vision, the vision doesn't necessarily determine sound positioning. Some conventions in practise today involve positioning the band in the Left & Right speakers, vocals in the Center and crowd noise in the surrounds. In addition to this reverb and effects sit nicely in the surrounds, enhancing the live feel of the performance. Extreme surround effects should be avoided - ie: if a guitarist is standing to the far left of stage, soft-pan to the left instead of hard-panning.

Music (not to vision)
Obviously, there are a lot less conventions and rules with surround music mixing. The most common thing to find is that engineers will avoid using the center channel and instead rely on phantom center unless they are applying a specific effect.

Defining Space
- There is usually less use of surrounds for interior shots as this creates a smaller sense of space. If surrounds were used on an interior space it would be either to imply a larger space, or to define wall sounds and atmospherics (like muffled traffic or cafe noise).
- Center dialogue can be left dry, with reverb adding space in other channels. Much like in the real world where direct sounds do not have reverb present.
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:10 AM   #2
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

thanks for this!!!! i have been looking for something like this online but all i come across is either buying some expeensive ass plugin or buying a surround setup and mixing like that (which is pretty much a hassle).


so lets say i make a song in fl studio7 with piano, drums, and some atmospheric synth


piano would be left and right, drums center, and atmospheric synth surround? how would i accomplish this in fl studio 7 (sorry, im kinda new when it comes to mixing and mastering)

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Old 04-12-2007, 04:12 AM   #3
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

Some cool stuff there, cheers dude .

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Old 04-12-2007, 04:53 AM   #4
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch0kshsa View Post
thanks for this!!!! i have been looking for something like this online but all i come across is either buying some expeensive ass plugin or buying a surround setup and mixing like that (which is pretty much a hassle).
No worries. I'm studying it quite intensely over the next few months. I've got several projects going on over the year so I'll be adding more notes as they come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch0kshsa View Post
how would i accomplish this in fl studio 7 (sorry, im kinda new when it comes to mixing and mastering)
Firstly, you would need to get an audio interface that has multiple outputs (at least six). I use an [ Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register ]
in my home studio and that has 8 line outputs in order to output each discrete channel. Obviously you'll need five speakers to output to. I bought a cheap set of surround speakers so I could play around and do a bit of editing at home.

I don't really use Fruity Loops but I had a quick look and it would be possible to create a surround image with a little bit of setup time. You would need to cancel the master output entirely and then rename the four sends to 'Center', 'Left & Right', 'Surround' and 'Low Frequency Effect'. You can then assign discrete outputs for each using the drop-down box shown in the image for below. I used 1&2 for my Center, 3&4 for my left and right, 5&6 for my Surround and 7&8 for my Low Frequency Effects.

This allows you to pan left and right for both L/R and Surround channels and you can control the amount being sent to each surround channel by firstly panning the sound and secondly increasing or decreasing the amount sent to that channel.

ie: Panning right 50% and sending to Surround would result in the sound being positioned more to the right on the surround channels.

You would also need to ensure that the Center and LFE channels only output mono. However, I am unsure how you would do that in Fruity Loops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch0kshsa View Post
so lets say i make a song in fl studio7 with piano, drums, and some atmospheric synth

piano would be left and right, drums center, and atmospheric synth surround?
Yeah you could do it that way. You could even create the piano image with the lower notes further to the left, mid-range notes closer to the center and high notes to the right (or in reverse) to give the feeling that the listener is actually sitting at the piano for example.

Using the configuration above, you could achieve this by composing your piano part and then breaking the midi up into high, mid and low ranges. Then create two copies of the piano (so you've got three in total) and placing low, mid and high across these. Then it would just be a matter of panning the low range to the left and sending it to left right, the mid range panned center and sent to center, and the top range panned right and sent to left right.

The same could be done with the drums, by positioning the drums across left, right and center in a similar arrangement as you might see in a drum kit and using the same rationale as the above example.

Obviously it gets a little complicated and I'd guess you'd need to play around with it for quite some time before you get a functional template. But once you've got it set-up right you can just save it and come back and use it in the future.

I would also recommend still writing your music in stereo and then bouncing each audio track to disk and dropping it into the surround template versus doing it all in surround. It keeps the composition process simple and avoids possible confusion that might arise when working with the full range of FX/Synths et cetera.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:14 AM   #5
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

I like to surround myself with beer when mixing.

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Old 04-12-2007, 05:38 AM   #6
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

so i don't need the 6 speakers right? i have a presonus firebox and two monitors hooked up to it.. can i produce the surround sound effect by simply doing this below?

"You could even create the piano image with the lower notes further to the left, mid-range notes closer to the center and high notes to the right (or in reverse) to give the feeling that the listener is actually sitting at the piano for example.

Using the configuration above, you could achieve this by composing your piano part and then breaking the midi up into high, mid and low ranges. Then create two copies of the piano (so you've got three in total) and placing low, mid and high across these. Then it would just be a matter of panning the low range to the left and sending it to left right, the mid range panned center and sent to center, and the top range panned right and sent to left right.

The same could be done with the drums, by positioning the drums across left, right and center in a similar arrangement as you might see in a drum kit and using the same rationale as the above example"
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Old 04-12-2007, 06:36 AM   #7
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch0kshsa View Post
so i don't need the 6 speakers right? i have a presonus firebox and two monitors hooked up to it.. can i produce the surround sound effect by simply doing this below?
No. You can create a stereo image. But that wouldn't be a surround effect as you're only working with left and right. Applying my example to a stereo image, you would only need to break the the midi in half, high and low. Although most piano mods already allow you to set the stereo width in their settings, so it may defeat the purpose.

The idea of separating as I suggested in my example is for surround effects. If you set it up that way, you could then send its output to the front speakers and send the piano to to a reverb that's going to the surround speakers, thus creating a sense of space.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:48 PM   #8
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

anyone here use this or ever heard of it.. sounds useful


Waves 360 Surround Tools Bundle

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Old 04-12-2007, 02:53 PM   #9
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

I haven't used it but I've been thinking of checking it out. Looks pretty schweet...
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:32 PM   #10
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

right now i have a presonus firebox (pic below)

would i be able to have a surround setup by connecting another 3 monitors and a sub to the outputs?


aker's stuff seems like it's in surround, and it sounds freakin marvelous on every system i play it on.. almost lifelike... i want my music to sound just like that
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:34 PM   #11
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
I like to surround myself with beer when mixing.
i agree with this post

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Old 04-12-2007, 11:35 PM   #12
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch0kshsa View Post
right now i have a presonus firebox (pic below)

would i be able to have a surround setup by connecting another 3 monitors and a sub to the outputs?

Indeed you would as you've got six line outs.
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:46 AM   #13
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

should i mix and match different monitors or stick with the same ones for all 5 monitors? i have 2 m-audio BX8A's right now.. what do you suggest i get? sorry for all the questions lol..i just want to make sure =X
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:05 AM   #14
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch0kshsa View Post
should i mix and match different monitors or stick with the same ones for all 5 monitors? i have 2 m-audio BX8A's right now.. what do you suggest i get? sorry for all the questions lol..i just want to make sure =X
It depends I suppose. You would get the best sound if you had a matched set. However, most domestic systems don't so I suppose if you got slightly lower spec speakers it would be more representative of what surround music would be played on. It's really up to you.
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:21 AM   #15
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i'll probably end up getting these
..heard some good things about them

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Old 04-13-2007, 04:41 PM   #16
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Oh damn they look nice. Will have to check how they sound somewhere around town for the price.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:20 AM   #17
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that helped me a lot... tanx!
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:52 PM   #18
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

so lets say that you mix in surround with a proper surround system.
how would that sound on a non-surround system (ie, stereo, or hell in some cases even (dual?)mono)?

ive been interested in this in a long time but im not sure what it would do to my music when played through a "normal" system.

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Old 08-09-2009, 06:06 PM   #19
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you'll only get the left and right channels, and will miss everything else. You'll have to down mix your surround mix to channels to hear it on stereo.

I did quite a bit of work in surround a few years ago, really loved it at the time. It can be really disappointing though the listen to something you wrote for surround on a stereo system. It can sound fine, but just won't be the same...

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Old 08-09-2009, 09:02 PM   #20
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Re: Surround Mixing Techniques - Post this thread on Twitter!

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you'll only get the left and right channels, and will miss everything else. You'll have to down mix your surround mix to channels to hear it on stereo.

I did quite a bit of work in surround a few years ago, really loved it at the time. It can be really disappointing though the listen to something you wrote for surround on a stereo system. It can sound fine, but just won't be the same...
this is what i figured aswell then.
so, when writing music in surround you should write left/right and then when panning stuff etc you use the surround channels aswell to widen the spatial image?

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