[Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories
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Old 20-11-2017, 03:57 AM   #1
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[Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

Hi guys, it's been a while.

I recently finished this song i titled "Present Memories", i'd like some brutal honest feedback in this one as well, gotta thank the community for helping me out to improve my sound day by day.

Thanks for listening.


Last edited by YoSoyPincho; 20-11-2017 at 04:09 AM..

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Old 20-11-2017, 04:39 AM   #2
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

Your crashes and hats are really concealed by synths, I think those should pop through a little more clearly. 2:23 to 2:37, apart from the hat, this is crisp compared to the rest of the track. 2:55 the synth/pad-ish sounds clash pretty hard.


The music is really good, I feel the synthwave vibe. Your mix could use some work

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Old 20-11-2017, 05:20 AM   #3
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

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Originally Posted by Taaz View Post
Your crashes and hats are really concealed by synths, I think those should pop through a little more clearly. 2:23 to 2:37, apart from the hat, this is crisp compared to the rest of the track. 2:55 the synth/pad-ish sounds clash pretty hard.


The music is really good, I feel the synthwave vibe. Your mix could use some work
Truly appreciate this feedback for real, i do have some trouble when mixing high frequency ranged sounds, i will try to be more aware of it next time. I appreciate the fact you liked the song tho, thanks a lot Taaz and have a good one!
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Old 20-11-2017, 08:34 PM   #4
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

Cool track! It's different! I got really pleasure. Great work, man!
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Old 21-11-2017, 05:34 AM   #5
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

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Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
Cool track! It's different! I got really pleasure. Great work, man!
Awe hey, I'm really glad it touched you in some way Adelina, truly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
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Old 22-11-2017, 02:04 AM   #6
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

OK.

First things first - Theory and Song Arrangement:
You nailed this. There's nothing I would suggest changing here.
This is a wonderfully written song!

All of the room for improvement that you have are on the engineering/technical side of the house.
So, let's dive in!

Technical Summary:
A) Dial that reverb at the end down a bit on the synth.
You're washing out the clarity of the melody so it's blurring around the edges just a bit too much whereas it could be very crisp.

B) Dial some stuff down. During the full sections ("chorus") it's like being in a crowd of very interesting topics all being yelled as loud as they can. There's very cool stuff going on in there, but everything's fighting with each other for space and attention. Figure out which tracks are the lead role of the section and which tracks are the supporting roles and dial those supporting roles down and pan them a bit off to left or right channels, leaving the lead role track(s) down the middle.


Alright, now on to loudness and frequency profile:
First of all...this is way too loud and too tightly compressed.
You have a decent spread across the LUFS thanks to your softer sections (on the LUFS histrogram, look at the stuff that's -11 to -20ish ranges...that's coming mostly from your softer parts, so well done!), but when you go all in, you are just slamming everything to a very tight range that's not very far away from your peak ranges (look at those three pillars of blue hovering around the -9 to -7 LUFS ranges...that's coming mostly from your bigger sections).

As a consequence, you're averaging around -10 to -11 LUFS and peaking on average around -2.5 LUFS and ending up with a super compressed dynamic range of just under 8.5.

You've actually got about 6 times where your peak goes just a tap over 0 (+0.06 actually).

You could easily resolve this by just moving things around regarding your supporting tracks like mentioned before so that you don't have three high-rise pillars slamming just under 60% of your content into the -9 and -7 LUFS.
You've basically squished the dominant amount of your song into a 2 LdBFS range - that's a very tight tunnel.

Pan some stuff around and lower things that aren't the primary voice.


You'll see on the spectrograph that you've got every frequency hiked up loudly rather than letting anything drop more naturally.
A natural curve for the spectrograph should look more like a sloped hill that's ripe for sledding down.

Let some frequencies, not all of them, fall wherever they want rather than using tools to boost and compress things into a designated spot (also watch out if you are EQ shaping as many EQs also augment the dBs).

Aim for an average of around -16 to -15 for this song rather than -10 and let the song widen up in amplitude ranges by keeping your drums high which will deliver big peaks while the instruments will draw along the -15 to -10 ranges (fluctuating over parts) and so you'll end up with an amplitude dynamic range of roughly around 10 to 11 dBs, which is much better (and easier on the ears).
Your song is definitely loud enough and robust enough to survive dropping the dBs down to around -16 to -15 ranges and still reach up into the -2dB's with spikes to reach out and gnarl at us.


Remember: streaming services regulate the loudness so trying to "be loud" often is mitigated by the streaming service, and if you're a bit on the quiet side, then that same regulator will bump the song up to the range they normalize to, so it's unlikely that you'll miss anything with an error a bit on the softer side if that happens.

Also remember: the end-user has a volume controller. If they want it louder, they can easily make it louder.
The problem I had with your song was that I wanted it quieter, but your song is so loud that I had to have the fader down almost to zero to get it to "moderate".



Like I said, GREAT song - you've just got some opportunities on the engineering side of things.

Cheers!
TheStumps

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Old 24-11-2017, 03:59 AM   #7
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
OK.

First things first - Theory and Song Arrangement:
You nailed this. There's nothing I would suggest changing here.
This is a wonderfully written song!

All of the room for improvement that you have are on the engineering/technical side of the house.
So, let's dive in!

Technical Summary:
A) Dial that reverb at the end down a bit on the synth.
You're washing out the clarity of the melody so it's blurring around the edges just a bit too much whereas it could be very crisp.

B) Dial some stuff down. During the full sections ("chorus") it's like being in a crowd of very interesting topics all being yelled as loud as they can. There's very cool stuff going on in there, but everything's fighting with each other for space and attention. Figure out which tracks are the lead role of the section and which tracks are the supporting roles and dial those supporting roles down and pan them a bit off to left or right channels, leaving the lead role track(s) down the middle.


Alright, now on to loudness and frequency profile:
First of all...this is way too loud and too tightly compressed.
You have a decent spread across the LUFS thanks to your softer sections (on the LUFS histrogram, look at the stuff that's -11 to -20ish ranges...that's coming mostly from your softer parts, so well done!), but when you go all in, you are just slamming everything to a very tight range that's not very far away from your peak ranges (look at those three pillars of blue hovering around the -9 to -7 LUFS ranges...that's coming mostly from your bigger sections).

As a consequence, you're averaging around -10 to -11 LUFS and peaking on average around -2.5 LUFS and ending up with a super compressed dynamic range of just under 8.5.

You've actually got about 6 times where your peak goes just a tap over 0 (+0.06 actually).

You could easily resolve this by just moving things around regarding your supporting tracks like mentioned before so that you don't have three high-rise pillars slamming just under 60% of your content into the -9 and -7 LUFS.
You've basically squished the dominant amount of your song into a 2 LdBFS range - that's a very tight tunnel.

Pan some stuff around and lower things that aren't the primary voice.


You'll see on the spectrograph that you've got every frequency hiked up loudly rather than letting anything drop more naturally.
A natural curve for the spectrograph should look more like a sloped hill that's ripe for sledding down.

Let some frequencies, not all of them, fall wherever they want rather than using tools to boost and compress things into a designated spot (also watch out if you are EQ shaping as many EQs also augment the dBs).

Aim for an average of around -16 to -15 for this song rather than -10 and let the song widen up in amplitude ranges by keeping your drums high which will deliver big peaks while the instruments will draw along the -15 to -10 ranges (fluctuating over parts) and so you'll end up with an amplitude dynamic range of roughly around 10 to 11 dBs, which is much better (and easier on the ears).
Your song is definitely loud enough and robust enough to survive dropping the dBs down to around -16 to -15 ranges and still reach up into the -2dB's with spikes to reach out and gnarl at us.


Remember: streaming services regulate the loudness so trying to "be loud" often is mitigated by the streaming service, and if you're a bit on the quiet side, then that same regulator will bump the song up to the range they normalize to, so it's unlikely that you'll miss anything with an error a bit on the softer side if that happens.

Also remember: the end-user has a volume controller. If they want it louder, they can easily make it louder.
The problem I had with your song was that I wanted it quieter, but your song is so loud that I had to have the fader down almost to zero to get it to "moderate".



Like I said, GREAT song - you've just got some opportunities on the engineering side of things.

Cheers!
TheStumps

Wow sir, first of all i would like to thank you immensely for taking your time on giving such detailed critique, you have no idea how enriching and useful i find this! So thanks a lot.

I feel really happy inside knowing you find the musical writing itself beautiful, it means a lot to me.

You are absolutely right about the reverb low ends on synth, i did notice the melody was getting lost in between something, but didn't recognize the reverb as the possible suspect here! It does makes sense as i experimented a lot with wet soaked reverb sounds, trying to make it sound "spacey/wide". I will be more aware of the reverb frequencies indeed. Thanks a lot!

I truly appreciate the fact you pointed out the fact different elements are crashing together, i tried so much to give them their own protagonism, but unfortunately i have to understand all elements can't be at the same level going around, so i will try to dial those supporting roles down and pan them as you say to give the whole mix more clarity indeed.

And i might sound ignorant here, but it's actually the first time i hear about these LUFS scale indicators, you just got me on a full reading session the whole night sir haha. I find this incredibly fascinating and interesting on how it can give away a loudness perception feedback. I can see indeed what you mean about the huge amount of difference between the "chorus" and the soft parts, i notice indeed whenever i hear the song the decrease of general level as things calm down a bit, so i will keep on working on these mixing levels whenever i change between the song different parts.

And about the Spectrograph, it is incredibly accurate as i actually put a brick-wall low-pass filter around 18 kHz on every single track because i normally don't like the really "sandy" bright sounds, and the mid frequencies were also quite boosted up too much originally, which i happened to attenuate with EQ's, but i think i had to lower the level even more, to reach up the -16 dB's as you mention.

And about the streaming services, you are god damn right also. I will try to risk it better by have it all quieter than the opposite, as the user indeed can regulate the level if they want it louder.

Sir, i couldn't be more thankful for such insight, not only i find this enlightening for my future creations but also super informative and well founded. I will inform myself even more about these LUFS meters, i find it super interesting and i think if i get to understand it and measure things with it in a future, i will be more on control of the dynamics of things.

I give you my immense gratitude and appreciation for taking your time and being full honest here.

Have a really really good one sir. You are the best
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Old 24-11-2017, 10:40 AM   #8
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoSoyPincho View Post
Wow sir, first of all i would like to thank you immensely
You are very welcome, sir.

Quote:
You are absolutely right about the reverb low ends on synth, i did notice the melody was getting lost in between something, but didn't recognize the reverb as the possible suspect here! It does makes sense as i experimented a lot with wet soaked reverb sounds, trying to make it sound "spacey/wide". I will be more aware of the reverb frequencies indeed. Thanks a lot!
AH-HA!

OK, if you are looking for some ideas of how to accomplish a spacey sound, here's my 2 nuyen!
Don't turn to reverb for spacey sound.
It seems like that's where you would go, but unless you have a really nice [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
, you're just not going to get something that works for a moderately fast melody line, with lots of active supporting tracks around it. You'll instead end up with too much for the human brain to easily sort through at the speeds per second that the quantity of sound information is delivering. The net effect will be an audible fog with highlights plucked out here and there because our brains are impressively fast and will still hang in there with most of the notes and we'll still get the general gist of it.

What I would suggest is to drop the reverb entirely.
Grab a flanger effect and turn the rate all the way down to minimal, and the saturation/affect level to maximum and then dial it back until it makes a pleasing metalic buttery sound...almost like talking inside of a culvert.
Then grab a delay effect from your tools. Grab one that has the ability to be short, well pronounced, and that you can easily dial in to roughly around 8th note repetition.
Play with it around a little, but basically you'll be looking for JUST a slight bit of repeat/delay and yet a QUICKLY fading return so it doesn't pile up over time (just to where you can hear 2 to 3 times after the initial note, but still well below the actual note volume levels so that if there's overlap, the "real" note takes priority).
Then, and this is where the fun comes in...
Grab a stereo widener and flip the polarization 90 degrees so that rather than "down the middle", you'll be sending the sound "down the left and right".
Make adjustments, but you'll probably want the sound to be spaced out somewhat wide so that it's not super narrow (but sometimes you might find the super narrow works on a melody).

Alternative method - the Giorgio Moroder style.
In this method, you still toss on a flanger and dial everything way back, but you skip the rest.
Instead, you duplicate the track and then offset the duplicate by a 32nd or 64th note or even less...you'll have to zoom way in probably...just a HAIR off..actually, less distance than a hair.
Then you move one track slightly to the left (about 11 o'clock position) and the other to the right (about 1 o'clock position).

This is a painful to edit, but if you already have everything laid down, then this can often be more clean and create the effect more clear.
However, it's all about dialing in that hair of a difference between the two tracks.
If you dial it too far out, then you end up with a literal doubling of every note, and if you dial it too tight then you just end up with a huge leap up in your volume level.
That's another challenge with this; you'll have to readjust the entire level for the melody because you have two tracks spitting out the melody instead of just one.

I go with both of these depending on what's going on.
If it's a really full song, I'll often go with the single-track effect method, but if it's a smaller track song with lots of room, then I might go with the Moroder way.

Quote:
And about the Spectrograph, it is incredibly accurate as i actually put a brick-wall low-pass filter around 18 kHz on every single track because i normally don't like the really "sandy" bright sounds, and the mid frequencies were also quite boosted up too much originally, which i happened to attenuate with EQ's, but i think i had to lower the level even more, to reach up the -16 dB's as you mention.
Yep; that ("brick-wall low-pass filter") would definitely do that.

The other way around this is to address the sound profile at the instrument level.
This may not be possible with all synths, and in those cases, you'll have to work on it via EQs or a multiband compressor.
Basically, most instruments have some sort of tonal control and you can usually sculpt it into shape around the edges with an EQ or a multiband.

If I'm not working on a square ADSR envelope[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]
, then I'll most often use a multiband because the nice thing about an MTB over an EQ is that it's much easier to not create amplitude accidents with an MTB.
And EQ can easily punch up the middle in large amount just because you've tried to isolate it and not noticed that it's increasing the dBs rather than just isolating the pocket you like.

An MTB can more clearly shave off the top end and focus the middle ground in without that issue....but if you want to dial a really complicated profile of the tone in, then an MTB isn't going to be what you reach for.

But I really do prefer addressing tone in the instrument sound itself.
Most sounds can be adjusted without using effects to get there, and if they can't be, then a different sample or synth might be worth considering before reaching for EQs or MTBs to shape the tonal profile.


I would, however, suggest stopping the low-pass cut filters.
I know that's a super common thing to do, but just don't bother with it.

If you want to apply a low-pass filter, you could apply that on the master or one of the mix buses, but I wouldn't do that on the instrument track layer very often.

Ultimately, however, I would just not use low-pass filters to build a sound profile, and instead stick with EQs and MTBs.
Frequency pass filters are great for cutting off areas that don't need to be included to make sure you don't have problems when the song is played in different venues and at different (really loud, for example) levels (like big PAs), but even though it's common now, they aren't really intended to be used to instrument tonal profile creation.

I like to think of the pass filters (both high and low) like the walls of a sandbox.
There's just literally no sound after that point.
But that can be very dangerous if used too narrowly, like on every track, because that's like building a miniature sandbox frame inside the sandbox because you want to raise some sand up in one spot.
The problem is that you eventually box yourself in with very little flexible elbow room this way, so there's no real ability for expression to flex "naturally".
It's more like a machined piston of sound - very specific, but very powerful.
Which CAN be cool, but you really have to be more careful, and use it as a tool and not just a default setting because not all sounds play nice with this treatment and you can get conflicts and problems generated.


Anyway, I'm rambling...sorry about that.

Cheers!
TheStumps

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You, or anyone else, are free to do anything with the music that I make. I consider all of my productions to be public domain. If someone asks, I will give them the source files and any related sample files if they are needed. Music is a dialogue, not a speech. Any listener must be free to become the speaker at any time for the life of the dialogue to be retained. Let us, then, discuss in tone.
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Old 27-11-2017, 06:29 AM   #9
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Re: [Synthwave] V-Axis - Present Memories

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
OK, if you are looking for some ideas of how to accomplish a spacey sound, here's my 2 nuyen!
Don't turn to reverb for spacey sound.
Wow, this sounds super crazy and had me speechless from the beginning. Can't wait to get myself on trying these mystical ideas and experiment with it, as far as it gives the sensation of spacey sound, i'm all for it. Wow, i'm really excited to try this all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
What I would suggest is to drop the reverb entirely.

I lost my shit right after this one haha. Sounds so crazy for real as i put reverb pretty much on every single synth i use, even if it's a slight ammount. But i like crazy, so i'll definetely give it a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
Grab a flanger effect and turn the rate all the way down to minimal, and the saturation/affect level to maximum and then dial it back until it makes a pleasing metalic buttery sound...almost like talking inside of a culvert...
Wow, I will definitely try this. Is incredible how oblivious i was with such important thing as stereo widening. Is something i well know i still have lots to learn about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
Alternative method - the Giorgio Moroder style...
I'll try this one too. Didn't know good old Giorgio was such little crazy goof! Another good reason to give it a try haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
I go with both of these depending on what's going on.
If it's a really full song, I'll often go with the single-track effect method, but if it's a smaller track song with lots of room, then I might go with the Moroder way.
Got it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
...But I really do prefer addressing tone in the instrument sound itself.
Most sounds can be adjusted without using effects to get there, and if they can't be, then a different sample or synth might be worth considering before reaching for EQs or MTBs to shape the tonal profile.


I would, however, suggest stopping the low-pass cut filters.
I know that's a super common thing to do, but just don't bother with it.

If you want to apply a low-pass filter, you could apply that on the master or one of the mix buses, but I wouldn't do that on the instrument track layer very often.

Ultimately, however, I would just not use low-pass filters to build a sound profile, and instead stick with EQs and MTBs...
It totally makes sense what you mention about sculpting a sound with a multiband compressor as i wouldn't risk it too much with any frequency having an annoying resonance effect, i'd set a threshold level on each band instead, which will immediately avoid any possible saturation on frequencies (thing i guess was the ultimate idea you were addressing with the MTBC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
I like to think of the pass filters (both high and low) like the walls of a sandbox...
Such an interesting analogy you are doing right there, gotta be careful with EQing indeed to avoid boosting up too much, or the opposite, leaving a whole frequency group untreated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStumps View Post
Anyway, I'm rambling...sorry about that.
Sir, nothing to be sorry for here, really. Gotta be me for taking your time to mention things that might be obvious for you already and explaining them in such nice and detailed way, which i truly deeply appreciate. I find this all incredibly informative, enlightening and super useful for real. Again, thanks for such valuable techniques and advices.

My best wishes for you good sir, and have a really good one!

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