[henryspencer]

I often imagine to myself the creative advantages of working all with hardware in terms of turning all these knobs and dials without a screen to look at. Especially in terms of the limitations of having to stick with sounds until they sound good. WIth software as soon as I think Im not liking something I often just delete the device and load another patch. I can feel integrity kind of being lost here.

What tips would you offer for somehow bringing that type of creativity as you would see with someone in a room with their mpc, a few synths and a DAT to the modern environment of software?


Also: is hardware drum programming more similar to entering midi notes on the piano roll or using individual audio WAV clips (burial style)?

[Cat3]

it depends on you: usually software has much more possibilities in terms of creativity. extreme tools like maxforlive, reaktor, etc are software only: there are people who love to program their own devices, and people (like me) who feels nausea coming up just looking at the presets.

I personally like the limitations and crank out the most creative things mangling samples with my mpc, but I also use a lot of software tools to record the machines, add sounds I don't have on hardwares, to arrange, polish sounds, mix etc.

try to buy a cheap hardware synth or drum machine (we're here if you need advice) and try it for yourself!

also: usually, hardware drum programming is more similar to entering notes on a piano roll.

[Automageddon]

It depends on your DAW, but if you want to use software only and still have a creative approach, look into having your own custom templates.
For example, in Live you could have a group with an custom drum-rack, one with basic bass patch and a fx rack, one with a basic lead patch and more fx, you could set-up your basic send/returns with the classic reverbs and delays.
This way you have something ready any time you fire-up Live.
Then it's about learning your keymappings or creating your own.

And learn to let go, if you're composing, don't tweak for hours, approximate, you'll mix later.

A good hardware controller can help, things like Maschine do not get in the way at all, maybe Ableton Push will work the same way.

And Cat3, you're absence from The Hardware Thread has been noticed...
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

[scyn]

Originally Posted by henryspencer

WIth software as soon as I think Im not liking something I often just delete the device and load another patch. I can feel integrity kind of being lost here.

I'd suggest picking a vst that you really like, map it out as best you can to a hardware controller if you want hands-on, and then use that VST extensively...or go a step further and use only that VST. I think sometimes people forget that a VST is an instrument just like a hardware synth and often load up another instrument far too quickly without fully understanding each one.

In the +- 4 weeks that I've had a hardware synth, I probably know more about it than I do 80% of the VST's I have installed, because I also fall into that trap of loading up another VST(i) without trying hard enough to achieve my goal with the tool that's currently in my hand.

So yeah - maybe even pick a handful of VSTi's and that's it for the next 6 months...it'll take some discipline but by the end of it you'll know what synthesis is all about, and have a better idea of how to actually make the sound you had in mind, rather than preset flipping. I actually feel lame switching between presets on my synth with all those buttons and knobs waiting to be touched .

[Cat3]

Originally Posted by Automageddon

And Cat3, you're absence from The Hardware Thread has been noticed...
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

ahah, are you talking about some post in particular or that's just an invitation?

...'cause usually nobody miss Cat3

[Cat3]

Originally Posted by scyn

In the +- 4 weeks that I've had a hardware synth, I probably know more about it than I do 80% of the VST's I have installed, because I also fall into that trap of loading up another VST(i) without trying hard enough to achieve my goal with the tool that's currently in my hand.

this because hardware is something physical you give more value to...

[Automageddon]

Originally Posted by Cat3

ahah, are you talking about some post in particular or that's just an invitation?

...'cause usually nobody miss Cat3

As you seem to like your hardware quite a lot, I thought you should start posting on the hardware thread, where we all drool and dream about gear...

And I noticed that you were posting less and less.

[Cat3]

Originally Posted by Automageddon

As you seem to like your hardware quite a lot, I thought you should start posting on the hardware thread, where we all drool and dream about gear...

And I noticed that you were posting less and less.

oh, I love hardware... btw I was on that thread, about to answer to your post about octa and mduw
they are so different beasts, what you need? sound design or sequencing?

[bbb]

I don't know what DAW you use but I've have Live and the APC40. I've been building instrument and effect racks for sole reason to use the macros. The APC auto-maps certain things native to live which you might feel through and then if you macro your instrument or effects and slide to that in the chain you have 8 knobs for instant gratification. Save them and you will always them ready to rock. Might not help when building a sound initially but it can be helpful during the playing portion.

Also like Maschine, there are other hybrid-like controller/software combos. I know Arturia off the top of my head has a keyboard/software setupwhere it comes with presets from their VST collection and then if you want more of them via purchase, they'llalso work. And then there is hardware. I have one cheap synth I like jacking with. I love recording sessions toaudio while a play stuff and getting little bits or entire parts from it.

I still think 3rd party plugins need more instant gratification possibilities without using the mouse though because instant fun is the best in my opinion.

[D_Davis]

A good way to do this is to limit the amount of control you have over every little aspect. Try downloading Angstrom's Looper, and insert it on a track that you've sequenced, and then randomly record various loops with sound on sound.

This way you have some control over the original tone/sample/etc, but not over the final recorded loops, because they will each be different.

For me, the joy of hardware comes from the limitations - I don't like getting caught up in the endless possibilities of ITB music making.

[henryspencer]

Originally Posted by Cat3

it depends on you: usually software has much more possibilities in terms of creativity. extreme tools like maxforlive, reaktor, etc are software only: there are people who love to program their own devices, and people (like me) who feels nausea coming up just looking at the presets.

I personally like the limitations and crank out the most creative things mangling samples with my mpc, but I also use a lot of software tools to record the machines, add sounds I don't have on hardwares, to arrange, polish sounds, mix etc.

try to buy a cheap hardware synth or drum machine (we're here if you need advice) and try it for yourself!

also: usually, hardware drum programming is more similar to entering notes on a piano roll.

I keep hearing about house musicians and techno people using only mpcs to make their records (cassius, and others). Does this mean that when it comes to drums, they are basically playing everything by hand? Could you please give us a short rundown on an example of how the workflow might work with someone in your case for building a song?

ie: In my personal case its loading drums into the redrum (I use reason), playing samples overtop, comming up with a bassline and mixing very poorly as I go....

[statisticquill]

Try closing your eyes and listening once in a while. Its easy to get distracted by what you're looking at. You can only concentrate on so much stuff at one time, if your attention is divided between your eyes and your ears you're not going to listen as well as if you closed your eyes. RJD2 posted this on twitter one time... "The most important thing to do in the studio is close your eyes"

If you use a MIDI keyboard, try placing it at a right angle to your desk. I have my microkorg set up so that its sitting perpendicular to my desk, so when I go to create sounds or play parts, I am forced to focus entirely on the microkorg and what's coming out of my monitors, because I'm not looking at my screen.

Also try bouncing to audio right away. Like, come up with a part, as soon as you think "OK, thats good enough", bounce it. Then you don't end up messing with your soft synths endlessly and programming tons of automation and stuff. You're forced to take what you have and move on. You can add reverb, EQ, compression etc later on, but you can't fuck around with your synths for hours accomplishing nothing.

I've started producing with exclusively my microkorg and drum samples from maschine. I play all the parts, no MIDI data, and I play the parts into maschine too. It feels way more natural to me, I don't get stuck flipping through patches, or tweaking random synth parameters, or whatever. Some people can work entirely within their software, but that just doesn't work for me. I need an instrument of some kind in front of me, thats the way that music makes sense for me.

[johanneslehmann]

I had this problem when using guitar amp sims a while ago. There was so much choice that I was overwhelmed and kept flicking back between different amp models, presets etc.

The solution for me was to put some serious time into my patches and then save them. Then when you need a sound recall them and tweak them or start afresh and save them again. That way you make something that starts off feeling very non-real and passing (a setting on a piece of software) into something that is very real (since you put the time into setting all those knobs and it's your piece of work).

Obviously that only gets over parts of your problem and still doesn't conjure up physical controls...

[henryspencer]

The both of you just gave me some really incredible advice! Thanks Were the three of us sharing a small tent, as a gesture of appreciation I would be in the middle practicing my ski pole techniques!

[Cat3]

Originally Posted by henryspencer

Does this mean that when it comes to drums, they are basically playing everything by hand? Could you please give us a short rundown on an example of how the workflow might work with someone in your case for building a song?

ie: In my personal case its loading drums into the redrum (I use reason), playing samples overtop, comming up with a bassline and mixing very poorly as I go....

you load the drum samples in a PROGRAM, create a TRACK playing the program (same as assigning a plugin to a daw's track) and write the rhythm playing by hand (you can overdub too) or in the step sequencer. each program has its mixer to determine the various drums' level.

then create a new program (eg bass), assign to a new track, play or write it

and so on

then you have also a track mixer in which you can determine (and automate) the tracks volume.

now you have finished your first so called SEQUENCE

create a new sequence
create new programs (or use the ones you already used in sequence 1)
create new tracks (or copy and edit / mute / unmute from another sequence)

repeat and you will have a number of sequences

now in SONG mode you can arrange the sequences to have your tracks arranged

pretty easy and straightforward, yet quite different from daw workflow. sometimes easier (e.g. sound design) sometimes more time consuming (e.g. midi editing)

I can tell you MPCs are similar to Maschine but they have their "sound" (that I like it more than machine's) and the interface is much more direct, as you have dedicated graphic interfaces for each functions instead of pages of "parameter / value" lists. yet, maschine is more versatile as you can use your 3rd party plugins, both synths and effects.

it's a matter of taste. I prefer MPCs but I bet you'll fall in love with the physical approach of machine if you try it. here you have a workflow tutorial:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

[magavan]

Originally Posted by henryspencer

I often imagine to myself the creative advantages of working all with hardware in terms of turning all these knobs and dials without a screen to look at.

What you described there is Maschine. It really is the best of both worlds. It doesn't feel like using software at all and you can ditch the mouse and not even look at the computer screen while making music. In fact, it can make any software (either plugins you load in it or software you control with Maschine in MIDI mode) feel like a hardware instrument.

Originally Posted by henryspencer

Especially in terms of the limitations of having to stick with sounds until they sound good. WIth software as soon as I think Im not liking something I often just delete the device and load another patch. I can feel integrity kind of being lost here.

For this, a synth-based standalone hardware like the Electribe EMX might be the easiest to give you that limitation. For me the Electribes were ultimately way too limiting and cumbersome once you pass a certain point, just as all other standalone hardware I've gone through. If you also find standalone hardware too limiting, which I'm guessing is why you started this thread in the first place, then you may want to work on improving your self-discipline to create your own artificial limitations.

[thisENIGMA]

why not hit automation record and just tweak the knobs one at a time on your soft synth? i do that sometimes and it just records all the motions i do. heck, i usually do it with my mouse. click a knob then turn it while you record the performance.

[statisticquill]

Been having a lot of fun with Logic's 'humanize' option lately, if your DAW has something to humanize MIDI I highly suggest you check it out. Adds some really nice variation in midi velocity and note position. Really small changes, but gives it that feel of a part thats actually played out, instead of notes that you clicked in with the same velocity and perfect quantization.

Recently I've been playing parts with a midi keyboard, quantizing them, and then humanizing them. Makes for some really subtle, but nice changes.

[Flux302]

In regards to the original post... Maschine gives me the exact feel of working with hardware but the benefits of software. (I'm a long time hardware head who was used to nothing but hardware till about 08). since maschine automapps it's 8 knobs right to the controller when u load a vst (and has digital scribble strips to tell u just what that knob is) it makes it feel like your vsts are almost real hard are (and works far better than novation auto map which I also use). to me it's all about hands on control. I like to make music fast (if you watch my youtube videos I pretty much never click in notes or use step sequencing. I do it all live. on an mpc you can do step sequencing also if you want but I really never liked that kinda workflow. now days it seems more companies are noticing the benifits of hardware software hybrids (look at spark, arturia Lab series, the REN, etc) it really makes a big difference when your just flying around not having to stare at a computer screen or click and drag one knob at a time.

[env mod]

Originally Posted by statisticquill

Also try bouncing to audio right away. Like, come up with a part, as soon as you think "OK, thats good enough", bounce it. Then you don't end up messing with your soft synths endlessly and programming tons of automation and stuff. You're forced to take what you have and move on. You can add reverb, EQ, compression etc later on, but you can't fuck around with your synths for hours accomplishing nothing.

That was all great advice statisticquill, you raised some things (especially closing your eyes) which I need to get into the habit of.

Can I just add to the bit quoted above that if you use live you can always save each channel strip somewhere handy in the library when bouncing stuff like this so that if you need to edit something later you can just drag all the midi data and vst(i)s back in.
Since I started bouncing straight away and saving channel strips like this I've got much further and work faster too. It's not often that I end up bringing a channel back in once its bounced but it's re-assuring to have them there if needed.