[_Mystik_]

i want to improve my orchestration skills, and i find reading helps me the best of all, so whats a good book for orchestration? id rather get one based around midi, as that wld probably be the most helpful to me as im composing midi, altho a basic guide to plain old orchestration would be just as good.

anyone know if "The Guide to Midi Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath is any good? thinking of getting it.

[statisticquill]

Orchestration is a pretty broad term... What exactly are you looking to learn? I'm guessing from your post about the EWQL (I think thats the acronym..) libraries, you want to learn a bit more about how to write parts for all the different instruments? If you elaborate a bit I'll try to pass on some useful information - I actually wrote an orchestral piece for my school's band one year. It was REALLY hard, especially because a band comprised of 12 year olds have some pretty extreme limitations on their abilities lol.

I can't say anything about that particular book unfortunately... Maybe try your local library?

You could also just check out open domain scores online:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

[_Mystik_]

Originally Posted by statisticquill

Orchestration is a pretty broad term... What exactly are you looking to learn? I'm guessing from your post about the EWQL (I think thats the acronym..) libraries, you want to learn a bit more about how to write parts for all the different instruments? If you elaborate a bit I'll try to pass on some useful information - I actually wrote an orchestral piece for my school's band one year. It was REALLY hard, especially because a band comprised of 12 year olds have some pretty extreme limitations on their abilities lol.

I can't say anything about that particular book unfortunately... Maybe try your local library?

You could also just check out open domain scores online:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

yes thats what im looking at, writing pieces for all different instruments in an orchestra, and the reason i was attracted to that one is because it covered doing it in midi, (even better it used ewql, which im getting) which could be helpful in multiple ways for me. my local barnes and noble has it, may check it out and see what its like

any suggestions would be nice lol that must have been a pain with the 12 year olds i cant imagine lol

[statisticquill]

Originally Posted by _Mystik_

yes thats what im looking at, writing pieces for all different instruments in an orchestra, and the reason i was attracted to that one is because it covered doing it in midi, (even better it used ewql, which im getting) which could be helpful in multiple ways for me. my local barnes and noble has it, may check it out and see what its like

any suggestions would be nice lol that must have been a pain with the 12 year olds i cant imagine lol

The worst part was having to conduct them in concert while they played the whole piece without the sharps

If you don't know how to write 4 voice progressions and stuff, I suggest you start there. Read up on counterpoint and the rules of harmony; the "grade 6" lessons on the theory website I posted in the tutorials section is a great place to start. Learn about cadences, and also sentences and periods (these are actually compositional elements, not just parts of the english language).

4 Voice progressions come into play a lot when writing orchestral parts; for example, you might have a Bass, Cello, Viola, and Violin; one instrument to each voice (at least to start out... there are often two violin sections). Generally you end up with the soprano part on the violin (the melody), the alto part on the viola (and sometimes tenor, if you have 2 viola sections), tenor/bass on the cello and the bass on the Bass (ha!).

Each orchestral instrument also has a range its comfortable in; you need to keep instruments within these ranges in order for it to sound natural. When writing parts, see what the high notes and low notes on specific instruments are, then stay somewhere in the middle of that range (obviously you can go to the very top of their range if it suits the part you're writing).

4 Voice progressions also come into play a lot with other instruments, ie Brass, Woodwinds, etc. Break it down into types of instruments, then try writing from your 4 voice progression for each instrument in the section (hopefully that makes sense).

Another important thing is the different types of motion; it seems odd but having your Soprano and Bass parts move away from each other sounds WAY better than having them move together. Try to think of how the parts relate to each other; obviously its important in electronic music but when you start playing with orchestral stuff it takes on a whole new level of meaning. Look into the types of motion and see what you can learn. You might have one part play a melody, and another part play an opposing melody at a slightly softer dynamic.

I post this stuff about counterpoint and harmony and blah blah blah in almost every theory thread I post in, but when it comes to orchestral stuff it becomes even more important. These rules more or less exist because musicians were like "wow, we have all these cool instruments, how the fuck do we make them sound good together?" Hence... Harmony!

Anyways, thats a severely lacking explanation of the whole thing, but hopefully its enough to get you started!

[_Mystik_]

Originally Posted by statisticquill

The worst part was having to conduct them in concert while they played the whole piece without the sharps

If you don't know how to write 4 voice progressions and stuff, I suggest you start there. Read up on counterpoint and the rules of harmony; the "grade 6" lessons on the theory website I posted in the tutorials section is a great place to start. Learn about cadences, and also sentences and periods (these are actually compositional elements, not just parts of the english language).

4 Voice progressions come into play a lot when writing orchestral parts; for example, you might have a Bass, Cello, Viola, and Violin; one instrument to each voice (at least to start out... there are often two violin sections). Generally you end up with the soprano part on the violin (the melody), the alto part on the viola (and sometimes tenor, if you have 2 viola sections), tenor/bass on the cello and the bass on the Bass (ha!).

Each orchestral instrument also has a range its comfortable in; you need to keep instruments within these ranges in order for it to sound natural. When writing parts, see what the high notes and low notes on specific instruments are, then stay somewhere in the middle of that range (obviously you can go to the very top of their range if it suits the part you're writing).

4 Voice progressions also come into play a lot with other instruments, ie Brass, Woodwinds, etc. Break it down into types of instruments, then try writing from your 4 voice progression for each instrument in the section (hopefully that makes sense).

Another important thing is the different types of motion; it seems odd but having your Soprano and Bass parts move away from each other sounds WAY better than having them move together. Try to think of how the parts relate to each other; obviously its important in electronic music but when you start playing with orchestral stuff it takes on a whole new level of meaning. Look into the types of motion and see what you can learn. You might have one part play a melody, and another part play an opposing melody at a slightly softer dynamic.

I post this stuff about counterpoint and harmony and blah blah blah in almost every theory thread I post in, but when it comes to orchestral stuff it becomes even more important. These rules more or less exist because musicians were like "wow, we have all these cool instruments, how the fuck do we make them sound good together?" Hence... Harmony!

Anyways, thats a severely lacking explanation of the whole thing, but hopefully its enough to get you started!

thats definitely enough to get me started. i find that im improving with the whole layering and voicing with some of my pieces, but i really want to read up on it to start and gain a better grasp of what im doing, and learn a lot as i have a lot to learn as far as orchestration goes

thanks for the helpful start

[statisticquill]

Originally Posted by _Mystik_

thats definitely enough to get me started. i find that im improving with the whole layering and voicing with some of my pieces, but i really want to read up on it to start and gain a better grasp of what im doing, and learn a lot as i have a lot to learn as far as orchestration goes

thanks for the helpful start

Glad I could help! I look forward to hearing the results : )

[HDiMusic]

Northern Sounds have the Rimsky-Korsakov Principles of Orchestration text online. It's pretty damned thorough.

I can't link to it yet, but it's easy enough to google.

[statisticquill]

Originally Posted by HDiMusic

Northern Sounds have the Rimsky-Korsakov Principles of Orchestration text online. It's pretty damned thorough.

I can't link to it yet, but it's easy enough to google.

Wow this looks awesome actually, thanks for sharing!
I found a link to it so I'll post it because you can't : )
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^That might link to the russian version... But there is an english translation on the same page.

[HDiMusic]

cool coolcoolcool...

the version at northernsounds (dot com) is web forum based rather than PDF, which opens it up for discussion and revision.

Also, the musical examples have all been put together in Garritan GPO, so you can hear them in real time while reading the scores.

I'm still gonna download all of those pdfs though

[IamOthello]

Hello! I am a composer that does quite a bit of orchestration. Here are a couple texts I would recommend.

Samuel Adler's Study of Orchestration - this text is seen as a manual of orchestration for the majority of conservatories around the world. It's extremely comprehensive, there are some criticisms of it though!

Hector Berlioz, revised by Strauss, Treatise on Instrumentation - this was written by Hector Berlioz, romantic composer and orchestrator. Oddly enough, Berlioz was a music critique that couldn't play any instruments but he revolutionized orchestration with this text. It also has a lot of outdated stuff in it (which is why Strauss revised it) but it's an incredible tool and a good look into history.

The Rimsky-Korsakov is pretty good as well.

Honestly, grab one of these books and go through it while doing score study. The best way to learn orchestration is through listening to music while watching the score. Beethoven is a great place to start as he was the father of modern orchestration.

Also, for some amazing orchestration check out Ravel's Daphnis Et Chloe. DAMN.

[Bruto Bello]

The Rimsky book is a little complex and convoluted. I suggest studying scores of music that you like. Gustavo Holst "Planets" is good, Debussy "La Mer".
The guide to midi orchestration is good. It sheds some light on midi performance techniques to make the performance realistic.
Also, check out and join pianofiles.com. There are lots of users there with scores to share. I got some scores for Batman and other movies. This really helped me see what modern orchestration looks like.

Cheers,
Nick

[ollirillo]

I've read all books mentioned in this thread and Adler's book is the best IMO. It's also good practice to take some piano piece and arrange it for orchestra or ensembles. Orchestration is very hard subject to master and even many great composers write things that are impossible to play or sound bad. Then there are others that can make sounds with orchetra that no one would imagine to be possible. Just listen some contemporary classical music from Europe and look at their scores.

Oh, Walter Piston has also one book that my orchestration teacher uses. And it's also useful to listen some modern concertos and solo pieces to understand what great soloists can do with their instruments.

[_Mystik_]

thanks for the suggestions everyone, i already picked up the guide to midi orchestration and the complete musician by steven g laitz, both books are great so far. only read a few pages of the complete musician, and is already starting out on the right foot, none of that 100 pages of history crap at the beginning of most music books, it jumps straight into tonal theory.

im about 100 pages into the guide to midi orchestration, and it is very helpful. it covers info about all of the different instruments (playing range, sound and articulations, usage, etc.) for the first 80 or so pages, which is very helpful. definitely finding them to be great books, even tho i havent really started the complete musician i can already tell its going to be a good read

[czarben]

Hal Leonard has lots of good books/dvds/tutorials

[vt100]

If I were you I'd start by studying an orchestra. Figure out what principles apply to an orchestra, and then map those principles to your electronic music. The fundamentals are more or less the same. And if you wanna get saucy, you could always pick up Principles of Orchestration. Book is a bit over my head personally.

[bbb]

subbing to this thread for now and future info.

On a side note, I've been looking at NI's classical instrument stuff. But I won't go further because it's expensive and I feel already like a NI spokeperson sometimes...

[_Mystik_]

Originally Posted by bbb

subbing to this thread for now and future info.

On a side note, I've been looking at NI's classical instrument stuff. But I won't go further because it's expensive and I feel already like a NI spokeperson sometimes...

i actually wouldnt suggest buying ni's classical instrument libraries (if youre referring to their session strings and horns) because they are NOT good for classical music, they are made for hip hop. (altho if thats what you want them for, then obviously theyre great )

if you want to know some good libraries for classical composition, look at VSL (vienna symphonic library), they have a wide array of packages, from the basic SE for 330, up to the complete set which is 6500 dollars, a little pricey there ewqlso gold edition goes for 500, and is great for classical composition, but is more on the cinematic side, while VSL is more for classical.

[bbb]

Originally Posted by _Mystik_

i actually wouldnt suggest buying ni's classical instrument libraries (if youre referring to their session strings and horns) because they are NOT good for classical music, they are made for hip hop. (altho if thats what you want them for, then obviously theyre great )

if you want to know some good libraries for classical composition, look at VSL (vienna symphonic library), they have a wide array of packages, from the basic SE for 330, up to the complete set which is 6500 dollars, a little pricey there ewqlso gold edition goes for 500, and is great for classical composition, but is more on the cinematic side, while VSL is more for classical.

I'm semi referring to them but the one I want is $399 I think. The one I want most:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

But yea, a bit off-topic as you're looking for info not a VST. But I'm not a musically gifted person so things like that, especially with instruments I love, makes me excited. The price....no.

I really just want something for string instruments, nothing I have at the moment is where I want it. And more variables is always awesome in my book. =D

Sorry not trying to derail your thread.

[_Mystik_]

Originally Posted by bbb

I'm semi referring to them but the one I want is $399 I think. The one I want most:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]


But yea, a bit off-topic as you're looking for info not a VST. But I'm not a musically gifted person so things like that, especially with instruments I love, makes me excited. The price....no.

I really just want something for string instruments, nothing I have at the moment is where I want it. And more variables is always awesome in my book. =D

Sorry not trying to derail your thread.

its fine, i actually already bought the books i wanted but 400 for strings is actually fairly priced, string libraries are very, very expensive. hollywood strings are 1000 bucks D: not saying its cheap, but string libraries (and orchestra libraries in general) are pretty costly.

action strings seems pretty cool, im just a bit confused what the score editor in the vst is for, are you able to use one note samples (like playing in the piano roll or what not) or do you have to notate in the vst?

[bbb]

Originally Posted by _Mystik_

its fine, i actually already bought the books i wanted but 400 for strings is actually fairly priced, string libraries are very, very expensive. hollywood strings are 1000 bucks D: not saying its cheap, but string libraries (and orchestra libraries in general) are pretty costly.

action strings seems pretty cool, im just a bit confused what the score editor in the vst is for, are you able to use one note samples (like playing in the piano roll or what not) or do you have to notate in the vst?

I'm not actually sure. I usually get hyped on something and then buy it. The first and easiest customer to attain for any company. =/

It sounds and looks cool, I impulse and get it. But then I see the price and say, whoa whoa.

But if string libraries like this are commonly at point or more, once I bite the bullet, it will probably be them. I did DL some DSK free VST's. The one that plays multiple intruments, is pretty intensive on the CPU. DSK - Overture. That actually have some neat little free stuff.

Again, not helping with your question. But I do think layering like-minded patterns together might take you where you're going without naming techniques that I know nothing about. Plus movement between layers to strike more differences.

You play a keyboard right? I seem to recall you had at least a 49key.