[SweHockey]

Yesterday I started to read about how to use modes in songs.

So I understand it like this.

In a major scale (Ionian mode) the chords are:
M m m M M m dim

So in C major it's: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and Bdim.


The chords in dorian mode is:
m m M M m dim M

And in D dorian it's therefore exactly the same chords.

So what's the difference if I'm going to make a progression in D dorian, instad of C Ionian? Is it a different "tension" (or whatever to call it) between the chords or what is it?


Or what if I wanted to play in C dorian instead of C major. Then the chords would be:
Cm Dm, E, F, Gm, Adim and B.

Can I just play whatever of these chords or do I have to use any special chords or progressions to make it sound modal?

Anyone with an easy explanation? And maybe an example of how to use modes?

[Djreject]

If you are going to modulate a lot and use tonalities that have a lot of sharps and flat, i'd advise seeing modes as a serie of tones and semi tones, it gets easier to figure them out afterward.


For example: as you said,

C major scale (Ionian mode)

is : C (tone) D (tone) E (Half-Tone) F (Tone) G (Tone) A (Tone) B (Half-Tone) C

This is a serie of interval that once applied to any notes, will give you a Ionian scale.


Now let's try with Dorian scale, which starts on the second degree of the Major scale, just go around from D to D using the tonality of C major.

D (tone) E (Half-tone) F (Tone) G (Tone) A (Tone) B (Half-Tone) C (Tone) D

This serie of interval is called the Dorian scale, and it can be applied to any notes.



Therefore the difference between C Ionian and C Dorian would be:
Ionian
C D E F G A B C
Dorian:
C D Eb F G A Bb C


It's tricky to get it because you have to see scales as a serie of interval rather than degrees and major/minor.

Once you have all the notes figured out you can start to creates chords progressions like
I-IV-V



TL DR: Modes are just like a major scale, except you use a different scale degree as a tonic.

[SweHockey]

Thanks for the answer, but that's actually the stuff I already know.

But the difference between C Ionian and C Dorian is a lot more different when it comes to chord progressions, because the chords are a lot different.


The problem is; I've read a lot about playing in a mode and that you for instans in D Dorian shouldn't use certain chords because you'd end up sounding C major, and that you have to use chords that make the song sound Dorian.

You get what I mean?

Or; like I asked before: Can I just play whatever of these chords or do I have to use any special chords or progressions to make it sound modal? Right know when I make a song I often just take the A minor scale, pick a few chords from it and use the scale to create a melody. Can I do the same with all modes and capture the feeling of that mode?

[Djreject]

I get waht you mean:



You see, the thing with modes is that they are variation of major and minor scales,


for example the lydian scale is a major scale with a sharp fourth, therefore it would make sense that emphasizing this sharp fourth would be a good way to sound Lydian.


Same thing for the other modes...try to find what note is distinct in the mode and use it in your melody so you'll sound Modal...

[SweHockey]

Ok, so that's like the "rule"? Play the chord(s) that makes it different from other scales?

[PeterBeckhart]

In other modes, it's not necessarily a RULE to play the "unusual" tones more often. But it's definitely necessary so you can hear that it's in a certain mode.

So you're asking: If I play in D Dorian, how do I not make it sound like it is in C Major, yes?

Firstly, whatever "home base" is has to be the root, so a D minor chord needs to sound like "home base". Make sure that the heavy and more tasteful parts of the melody, chorus, verse, bridge, etc can all revert back to the root naturally.

From there, I'd say be sure to use chords that can lead into the root well. For example, in a Dorian mode, the Major VII chord (CM in D Dorian) flows well into D minor. Use that to create momentum in the track. The big chord that usually distincts the track as a Dorian Mode is usually the Major IV chord. (GM in D Dorian), because it includes the B natural, which would, instead, be a Bflat if you were in D minor. Avoid using the half diminished 6 chord (B half diminished in D Dorian) because it is hard to make it flow to other chords. But if you get creative I'm sure you could find a way to make it work well.

Here is a link to a recent track of mine that's actually in the key of A Dorian (For the most part)

The main chords are the i (A minor), and the IV (D Major), but getting from A minor to D Major i use the progression i-III-v-IV,
or A minor to C Major to E minor, to D major. Then back to A minor to keep it sounding in that key.

[ghyt wembpang]

Modes are the same as the normal scale but you emphasize a different chord as the root.

simplest way to think of it really. Probably not really entirely true, but simplifies using it.

Honestly I think it's best to jsut jam shit up and don't worry about what key or mode it is until you find you need to. Which might happen quickly or not at all.

[TL072]

Originally Posted by SweHockey

The problem is; I've read a lot about playing in a mode and that you for instans in D Dorian shouldn't use certain chords because you'd end up sounding C major, and that you have to use chords that make the song sound Dorian.

You get what I mean?

I learnt modes jamming on a guitar, which if you play guitar might really be a lot of fun and help you get it. So for example to play in Aoelian, get your buddy to strum Am (or Am7) for 2 bars and then to strum F major for two bars (repeat). Now turn on a distortion peddle and play (cock rock solo) in Am (AKA C, but with riffs be sure to end up on A as you are starting out). To change it up your buddy could throw in a C major for one bar or a G major, but they must be sure to come back to Am soon.

If you don't play guitar, here is a simple idea. Lay down a bass line with a fun rhythm that hammers away on the note D. With your chord progression play Am to Dm in some nice rhythm (this is going to so sound very nice to the ear if you have even a moderate level of musical sense ). Now noodle away in Dm on the white keys.

This jam is going to be awesome, it is going to be a bit moody, a little sexy, and you can repeat it for every mode of C with ease, perhaps with the exception of B locrian. If you do these jams, you get a sense of the feel of each mode of C.

Jazz musicians do some pretty insane things with key signatures, one of the tricks they use to anchor the ear in a key is to play the chord progression V-I (this is called a perfect cadence I believe). Which is why I am suggesting you do that for the recipes above. The V-I progression in this case is relative to mode you are in, so the I is D.

Ultimately modes are somewhat relative to what is going on. You can play all the A minor you want, but if the bass and keys are playing in C major, it is likely going to sound like C major.

Finally, a little bit of a taster of one reason why modes are cool. Hopefully this will make sense. When you are playing modes you are emphasizing notes (which are the same notes as in other scales) in different ways. If I have a chord progression that is in D dorian and I am playing a D minor scale, then an E minor scale will work (it is either the III of C major or the II of D dorian). So if I then start playing E minor then I could consider this the II of D major or arguably the VI of G major, because the notes of the chord that I am playing (E minor) also are notes in those two scales. So after I could then play an F#minor (the III of D major) or an B minor (the minor III of G major), and so on. It would generally be with this last chord that I am changing the key of the song.

What this means is that I can shift pretty seamlessly between keys. Sometimes this will work better and sometimes it will work worse, but in some senses it should work. The one major caveat is that it will get pretty insane if you starting making more complex chords (i.e. 7ths 9ths) because some of those upper notes will not necessarily be in the keys you are shifting to. It will also help if you have a bass playing under the chord as the root note of that chord (to anchor it) and some of the melody notes may not be in the new key and so may sound a bit odd.

Hopefully that last bit is not as clear as mud.

[jBam]

Good explanations so far: simplest answer -->

Root key + chord prog ?

The key of the track is the root key, but when a new chord is played, u temporarily pretend this this is the root key...

Eg. Basic blues in c:

C major 7th: solo in c (major or minor);
Hits A major chord: solo in c (major or minor) OR A (mode);
Huts B major chord: solo in c (major or minor) OR B (mode)...

Super simple example, but: u get it??

It has a limited application in modern dance music, but that doesn't mean u shouldn't try it out!!!

[TL072]

Originally Posted by jBam

Good explanations so far: simplest answer -->
Root key + chord prog ?

Practically speaking this is more or less right, but this isn't quite correct if the OP wants to know what modal theory / modes are.

Originally Posted by jBam

C major 7th: solo in c (major or minor);
Hits A major chord: solo in c (major or minor) OR A (mode);
Huts B major chord: solo in c (major or minor) OR B (mode)...

To make this modal, you need to be playing Cmaj7, G7, Cmaj7, G7,Fmaj7, Cmaj7. Or C, G, C, G, F, C. Or doing some key changes in a modal way, I think would also technically be correct.

Originally Posted by jBam

It has a limited application in modern dance music, but that doesn't mean u shouldn't try it out!!!

YES. I definitely agree new techniques and ideas are always good. It is limited in some circumstances, but say you made jump-up D&B. If you played some nice modal chords over it, you could get a more jazzy LTJ Bukem kind of vibe for example. If you make electro, even a playing say Cmaj7 to Dm7, with bass line peddling away on the D would give you a more groovey tech vibe. IDM is weird enough that modal noodling probably sounds great (though I have tried little of this).

It does not work its way into everything I do, but for example it is a great way to find other chords that might work if you already have a chord you like and are stuck for ideas.

[SweHockey]

Originally Posted by TL072

Finally, a little bit of a taster of one reason why modes are cool. Hopefully this will make sense. When you are playing modes you are emphasizing notes (which are the same notes as in other scales) in different ways. If I have a chord progression that is in D dorian and I am playing a D minor scale, then an E minor scale will work (it is either the III of C major or the II of D dorian). So if I then start playing E minor then I could consider this the II of D major or arguably the VI of G major, because the notes of the chord that I am playing (E minor) also are notes in those two scales. So after I could then play an F#minor (the III of D major) or an B minor (the minor III of G major), and so on. It would generally be with this last chord that I am changing the key of the song.

What this means is that I can shift pretty seamlessly between keys. Sometimes this will work better and sometimes it will work worse, but in some senses it should work. The one major caveat is that it will get pretty insane if you starting making more complex chords (i.e. 7ths 9ths) because some of those upper notes will not necessarily be in the keys you are shifting to. It will also help if you have a bass playing under the chord as the root note of that chord (to anchor it) and some of the melody notes may not be in the new key and so may sound a bit odd.

Hopefully that last bit is not as clear as mud.

Thank you. But I got lost here. Are you saying that I can change scale as I change chords? So if I play Dm, then I use D dorian, and then when I play Em I change scale to E phrygian or E minor?


Thanks though for all good answers!

[Djreject]

Try experimenting with it man...


Modes are a very tricky thing to talk about theory-wise, I'd suggest you just play around with what you got from this forum.


Do you have an example of what you're producing with modes ?

It would be easier to understand what you're looking for


Cheers

[SweHockey]

I haven't tried using modes in any songs yet, because I don't feel I understand how to use them. But from what I've read here I can just see every mode like any other scale. And after that it's just like you're saying, experimenting.

But there are still a few things I don't get.

[aeoR]

Originally Posted by ghyt wembpang

Honestly I think it's best to jsut jam shit up and don't worry about what key or mode it is until you find you need to. Which might happen quickly or not at all.

Exaclty this. One time some friend started analyzing my tracks technically and he says "oh yeah I like the use of that mode at the beginning of this verse" etc.

And I was like .. "You don't say?!"

I don't know shit about this and I don't feel I need too. Anyways, most of the times, when songs are too "technically crafted" they sound dull.

my 2 cents

[SweHockey]

What sounds good is good is definitely something to have in mind, but I do actually like to know theory and have found it helpful so far in my tracks.

[PeterBeckhart]

Originally Posted by aeoR

I don't know shit about this and I don't feel I need too. Anyways, most of the times, when songs are too "technically crafted" they sound dull.

my 2 cents

I agree but it definitely helps if you have a plan of attack going into creating a track. Knowing theory has helped me in a lot of ways with music producing because I know what works before I even play around. That being said, its fun to break some music theory rules and just do stuff that sounds different.

[aeoR]

Originally Posted by PeterBeckhart

I agree but it definitely helps if you have a plan of attack going into creating a track. Knowing theory has helped me in a lot of ways with music producing because I know what works before I even play around. That being said, its fun to break some music theory rules and just do stuff that sounds different.

It's true, while I truly enjoy classical music, in a time where scores could be written without even touching an instrument, by one person, then played by an orchestra flawlessly.

Everyone has it's way of working and creating art. I don't say that I break rules and don't use modes either.. I use them, I'm just not aware of when

[ghyt wembpang]

the thing about music theory is that it's not rules, never has been, never will be.

You can't write music on a standard instrument or in a piano roll that follows a 12 tone system that doesn't follow theory, because theory is only a description of how sounds interact.

Even chromatic scales played jerkily over more or less randomly picked chord voicings will be able to have some theoretical explanation. whether it sounds good or not, you can describe why it sounds like it does.

[Djreject]

we start to to digress here


Music's theory has it's flaws indeed, but this is a never ending argument to try to find what's best between learning it or not...

OP asked a simple question about modes, which are, from what I remember from my learning years, one the trickiest part.

Anybody has a way to put it in a simple sentence ? cause I can't find it...

[statisticquill]

A mode is when the tonic of your song is on a different degree of the scale than the I. So for example, if your song is in the key of C and your tonic is D (the second degree of the C scale), then you are playing in the Dorian mode. There is one mode for every degree of the scale, i.e. 1 through 7. A natural minor scale is actually the aeolian mode (tonic on the 6th degree of the scale).

Hope that made sense : )