[iStarfox]

Hey guys,

Anyone know where i can get some project files, for Ableton or Logic Pro? preferably Trance, Prog Trance or Prog House. I would love to learn how other people structure their tracks.

Im learning music production and this is one side of things that slows me down, I always get to a point and wonder, what to do next.

Im not asking anyone to give away there creations, but only the structure of how tracks are built. Anyway, if anyone can help me, thanks

[scyn]

May be something useful in this thread: [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]

[shiggedyshwa]

Hey I know this is going to sound unhelpful, but I really think you should try to create a workflow that works for you.
Like I have a way of doing things that a few of my friends find to be backwards, and they have ways of setting things up that seem backwards to me and counter intuitive, but each of our own ways work well for us.

Referring to ableton (but can be applied with any DAW):
Try setting yourself up a template with three or so drum tracks, one track for your bass drums and low hits, another for snares and mid range hits, and the third for your hats and cymbals (consider using as many tracks as you want to separate the sound so each can occupy its own frequency range, because I have found keeping all your drums in one instrument track sometimes prevents you from being able to EQ as efficiently, especially when you are layering snares on snares or kicks on basskicks, etc.)

Also, consider using your send channels (that A,B,C thing on the right side)
Add 100% wet effects on them (one or two for reverb, another for delay, or two for delay, up to you how you like it)
Then for your instruments have them send more and less (automate them params!) to each of the different sends throughout the son. (For example, you have a spot where the drums cut out, but you want that delay effect on the light snare so you up the send of the snares track to 100% right before the drums cut out, then you'll have a nice delay while the rest of the drums are out and you just hear some instrumental, you have heard this effect in many songs if you think about it)
Also consider having your separate instrument tracks, maybe a high bass and a low bass, one with all the high frequency cut out, and the other with all the low frequency cut out, (i know you have heard of this technique before)

Always remember to use your EQs well so each sound can fit into the mix, use a mixture of reverb and other effects so it can sit in the mix without hogging all the sound as well.

An example of one of my templates when I open up live:
Two audio tracks, one with a compressor on it in case I want to use that for vocals (I like to compress the vocals so they stand out, this is when the vocals are actually a focus of the song, and if I am just using samples and making an electronic song where vocals are not the main focus, i tend to not use the compressor)
Then three drum racks (Kicks, Snares, Hats)
Then a sub bass VST instrument
Then a mid range synth instrument
Then a High range bleepy bloopy or doot doot instrument

The next step involves picking which drum samples I'm feeling, then loading them into the racks, getting a groove going, throwing in the bass first to get it feeling with the drums, offset it some to make it groove better, and then playing around with my keyboard on the midrange and high range instruments (after I pick new ones and mess around with the params till it sounds better)

But some days I just spend the entire day designing a new instrument to make a sound I hadn't heard before and then use it later in an arrangement in the future.

And when you get to that point when you wonder what to do next... it happens to all of us. Try something new! Don't be afraid to throw all that theory out the window and put your effects in places and in an order that everyone says not to do. Your effects will always help you if you spend enough time tuning them down to make that new sound added to your song. Don't quit on a song if you think it needs more just because you think theres nothing left to do. Too many people nowadays put a song out without putting enough work into it. Try to get inspiration and remember where you want to go with that particular song, and see if it evokes the proper feel you were going for, if not keep trying to add bits and pieces, little at a time, maybe some more samples are needed, maybe another instrument, maybe keep it minimal but fine tune the stuff that's already there. You can always do more to a song IMO

These are just some ideas I hope it helps, but consider checking out that other thread as it has many other's ideas and contributions on different workflows that can open your mind when it comes to compositions.

[iStarfox]

Originally Posted by shiggedyshwa

Hey I know this is going to sound unhelpful, but I really think you should try to create a workflow that works for you.
Like I have a way of doing things that a few of my friends find to be backwards, and they have ways of setting things up that seem backwards to me and counter intuitive, but each of our own ways work well for us.

Referring to ableton (but can be applied with any DAW):
Try setting yourself up a template with three or so drum tracks, one track for your bass drums and low hits, another for snares and mid range hits, and the third for your hats and cymbals (consider using as many tracks as you want to separate the sound so each can occupy its own frequency range, because I have found keeping all your drums in one instrument track sometimes prevents you from being able to EQ as efficiently, especially when you are layering snares on snares or kicks on basskicks, etc.)

Also, consider using your send channels (that A,B,C thing on the right side)
Add 100% wet effects on them (one or two for reverb, another for delay, or two for delay, up to you how you like it)
Then for your instruments have them send more and less (automate them params!) to each of the different sends throughout the son. (For example, you have a spot where the drums cut out, but you want that delay effect on the light snare so you up the send of the snares track to 100% right before the drums cut out, then you'll have a nice delay while the rest of the drums are out and you just hear some instrumental, you have heard this effect in many songs if you think about it)
Also consider having your separate instrument tracks, maybe a high bass and a low bass, one with all the high frequency cut out, and the other with all the low frequency cut out, (i know you have heard of this technique before)

Always remember to use your EQs well so each sound can fit into the mix, use a mixture of reverb and other effects so it can sit in the mix without hogging all the sound as well.

An example of one of my templates when I open up live:
Two audio tracks, one with a compressor on it in case I want to use that for vocals (I like to compress the vocals so they stand out, this is when the vocals are actually a focus of the song, and if I am just using samples and making an electronic song where vocals are not the main focus, i tend to not use the compressor)
Then three drum racks (Kicks, Snares, Hats)
Then a sub bass VST instrument
Then a mid range synth instrument
Then a High range bleepy bloopy or doot doot instrument

The next step involves picking which drum samples I'm feeling, then loading them into the racks, getting a groove going, throwing in the bass first to get it feeling with the drums, offset it some to make it groove better, and then playing around with my keyboard on the midrange and high range instruments (after I pick new ones and mess around with the params till it sounds better)

But some days I just spend the entire day designing a new instrument to make a sound I hadn't heard before and then use it later in an arrangement in the future.

And when you get to that point when you wonder what to do next... it happens to all of us. Try something new! Don't be afraid to throw all that theory out the window and put your effects in places and in an order that everyone says not to do. Your effects will always help you if you spend enough time tuning them down to make that new sound added to your song. Don't quit on a song if you think it needs more just because you think theres nothing left to do. Too many people nowadays put a song out without putting enough work into it. Try to get inspiration and remember where you want to go with that particular song, and see if it evokes the proper feel you were going for, if not keep trying to add bits and pieces, little at a time, maybe some more samples are needed, maybe another instrument, maybe keep it minimal but fine tune the stuff that's already there. You can always do more to a song IMO

These are just some ideas I hope it helps, but consider checking out that other thread as it has many other's ideas and contributions on different workflows that can open your mind when it comes to compositions.

Thanks for your great response, i appreciate it! I think i need to explain what i mean more though, everything you talked about there im fine with, i know my way around ableton to some extent, i know a nice bit of tricks too, although i have still a mountain to learn, who doesnt. Im also getting there in sound design, what i really get stuck on is actually 'writing a song' so to speak, structuring a track, be it prog house or prog trance.

I can create some nice beats, melodies, basslines (layered) all the usual effects like, sidechaining, reverb, delay, ect but i never know how to evolve a track, and the drop after a break in a typical trance track, thats another tough bit for me.

I know it will come with more practice though. Sometimes i will drop a track into ableton or logic and listen to it a few million times lol, while focusing on one element in that track, and i will try to create that sound, i repeat this for all elements within that track until ive my own version, and hopefully sounding close enough to it. So say it was a pluck sound or whatever, i will create its own individual track, eg pluck track and try and mimic it. I find that this is an excellent way of getting better, sometimes you can spend all day on one element trying to copy that sound, trying to be a lyrebird can be tough though haha And i not only try and recreate the individual sounds but how the track follows, break downs ect.. I think i just answered my own question lol.. But thats just one way of going about it.

[ghyt wembpang]

i thought you meants templates as in like channel strips set up with the shit you need for synths, mixing etc.

You mean arrangement though? shit man, just study a few tracks and experiment. Ain't no shortcut worth taking.

[jimmyr1988]

If you're overly bothered by the structure, just sit down and plan it out. Idea A 8bars, A 8bars, B, C, A, whatever. I find it's helpful if you have got a few varied ideas, just roughly sketch out what you plan to do with them. Usually changes from original plan though.

[Roland_Abuser]

Originally Posted by ghyt wembpang

You mean arrangement though? shit man, just study a few tracks and experiment. Ain't no shortcut worth taking.

Yeah, I`m thinking the OP means an arrangement to look at too.

From what he`s wrote though, I don`t think he means a template to actually use... Just a project file to study and take a proper look at how others arrange their tracks.

This is something I was searching for (unsuccessfully) a few weeks back when I was stuck at the arrange stage. I never wanted a template as a short cut just something to load up in Live and study as I`ve never seen a full track all properly arranged in a DAW before. After much web searching though I came to the conclusion that it`s not really something artists are too keen on sharing (for obvious reasons).

[iStarfox]

Originally Posted by Roland_Abuser

Yeah, I`m thinking the OP means an arrangement to look at too.

From what he`s wrote though, I don`t think he means a template to actually use... Just a project file to study and take a proper look at how others arrange their tracks.

This is something I was searching for (unsuccessfully) a few weeks back when I was stuck at the arrange stage. I never wanted a template as a short cut just something to load up in Live and study as I`ve never seen a full track all properly arranged in a DAW before. After much web searching though I came to the conclusion that it`s not really something artists are too keen on sharing (for obvious reasons).

Yeah thats it, thats what i wanted, but ive come to the conclusion that i have to do what everyone else does, and do things the hard way lol, worth a try though.

The way im doing it now, what i mentioned in my below post works well, is to drop a track into abelton/logic and dissect it and mimic each individual track within it, its a good way to learn, you just need lots of patience.

[Roland_Abuser]

Originally Posted by iStarfox

Yeah thats it, thats what i wanted, but ive come to the conclusion that i have to do what everyone else does, and do things the hard way lol, worth a try though.

Haha, yeah same here! I realised it's probably for the best anyway- it might be the longer way around but I think developing your own way of doing things will probably be best in the long run.

Originally Posted by iStarfox

The way im doing it now, what i mentioned in my below post works well, is to drop a track into abelton/logic and dissect it and mimic each individual track within it, its a good way to learn, you just need lots of patience.

That's exactly what I was going to suggest dude, it's what I ended up doing when I couldn't find any project files to study. Found that after a while your track usually starts to sound nothing like theirs anyway and you're left with some decent stuff of your own to build on. It seems a good way to get past the initial arrangement block stage if that makes sense?