[FTD]

I have about 8 tracks finished and probably about 200+ loops, jams, whatever sitting on my hard disk

I think I must suffer from what is the biggest problem for a lot of amatuer producers, that's getting the rocking 4-bar loop into a proper arrangement. I do mainly house/techno so am quite versed in it's structure and I've also dissected a few tracks to see what is happening. However, I can sit and knock up a little loop, have my foot tapping and think "this is great" and then when I put it into an arrangement it feels flat, I'm bored and onto the next one.

Not looking for definitive answers here but a bit of chat over what is obviously my biggest hurdle. Any ideas, tips, methods etc?

[Dippshoe]

If you extend your loop into 8 bars this could be enough for a whole song actually. Use the melody in tons of different instruments and filter them in and out together.

[AbM]

I also struggle with the same thing. But I do find thinking about contrasts helps, especially when you've got a load of loops, for example. The verse section could be filled with short stabs and a lack of highs, and then have some sustained elements in the chorus, along with some hats/pads/, or any sort of parts occupying the treble region.

Same works for a lot of these thinks: wonk - straight; clean - distorted; consonance - dissonance.

Take DnB... Generically, especially with Hospitality releases, you'll undoubtably have an intro of 32 bars without any sub bass. The last 4 bars of this, ever element drops apart from the main hook vocal / synth, and then the next (the pay off) sections kicks in with the sub bass.

It's all about the contrast... Or, the illusion of dynamics.

I'm also stuck at the moment, though... Love to hear about any other ideas people have.

[Djreject]

Try to extend your loop into a song like you did.


Then find the parts that you consider flat and dull and layer stuff there...



Sort of layering the layers....it works for me most of the time

[Bo-Ash-Oak]

It's a tough one, glad there's a thread on this, not so glad it's not got a feast of replies :/ I've the same problem, still not sure what the best way is to combat it.

I think one of the drawbacks with electronic production is the often slow process of translating ideas into sounds via a computer. Got a guitar at your hands you can wack out an idea like it's nobodies business. Via your chosen DAW, it can be slow and I get that 'it's too much effort to carry this through and find the sounds I need etc.' feeling. Plus, don't know if it's just me but I get bored of things quickly and move on.

I think cutting down that lag time between idea and finished product is important, but no doubt it's hard to achieve.

[niksah]

Once you get to that point where everything is basically laid out, try focusing your attention on things like fills, breaks, transitions, automation, etc. It's amazing how far little stuff like that goes. It gets boring because it just feels like a bunch of loops that start and stop, a track needs all of the little things to give it life.

[ParallelEDM]

For the longest time, I found myself working on the main chorus or hook of a track first. I'd pick a good lead sound, and start fiddling until I came up with a cool melody line. Once that was done, I'd add some drums, and before I knew it, I had a great sounding 4-8 bars. But then I have the exact same problem everyone else has.... where do I go from here?

My technique lately has been focusing more on arrangement and structure first. Getting a really sonically pleasing kick and snare/clap sound designed, pick some of the other percussive elements that seem to go well with it, and build an arrangement as much as I can from there first. Once that is done, I'll go back to the beginning of my regular workflow where I pick a patch and start fiddling with melodies. Once I get a good one, I build another in the same key or chord progression. After I build 3 or 4, I start trying to fit them into my arrangement and see how they sound.

This technique doesn't work every time, but has been a refreshing change for me. Hope this helps!

[statisticquill]

I saw this in an Avicci "in the studio" video on youtube:

He takes a 4 voice chord progression with a melody on top, written in midi with just a piano sound.
Then he loads up some VSTs, copies that chord progression to each track, and deletes a voice or two as he sees fit, shortens the parts, and generally just takes a single chord progression and develops it into so many different parts that he has a song. He does this mindblowingly fast too, its just a matter of fucking around with your chord progression enough that you have enough parts to build up and drop, etc. Sure, there are a lot of people here that hate his music, but damn he makes a lot of money off this technique.

Well worth a shot, the hardest part of your song is basically writing a 4 chord progression and then you get to just bang out an arrangement. Fun and easy.

[FTD]

I really couldn't stand to listen to that Avicci clip much longer but I like his idea of getting the peak of the track, the final section, first and working back. I'm trying that with a straight forward house thing I'm working on.

I also read on another forum about jamming loops live in Abletons arrangement window. That might work for some but I tried it a few times and ended up with 20 minutes of noodle Practise I guess.

[carlgrace]

I've started working in a somewhat similar way to Avicci lately, and my productivity has skyrocketed. Basically you do a chorus or verse with all kinds of stuff and then you arrange it by copying it multiple times and muting parts to help it build up. I do the same thing with the verse, and make sure they are in the same key (unless I don't want them to be).

I almost always stick to a standard arrangement at first of intro -> verse -> chorus -> verse -> chorus -> bridge -> chorus

By putting the initial arrangement on autopilot I can some raw material to work with and start making decisions of fills, embellishments, rearrangements etc. Basically you don't want to make all the decisions at once, or you'll end up not making any decisions (and you'll get bored and abandon the track).

I got a lot more productive when I just did SOMETHING, and then edited, rather than trying to get it right the first time, which almost never works. Using a standard arrangement helps a lot with the SOMETHING. It doesn't have to be formulaic either because you are free to rearrange and be creative next but you got to start with some raw material.

[Dippshoe]

Originally Posted by carlgrace

I've started working in a somewhat similar way to Avicci lately.

And now you want to kill yourself?

[statisticquill]

Originally Posted by carlgrace

I got a lot more productive when I just did SOMETHING, and then edited, rather than trying to get it right the first time, which almost never works. Using a standard arrangement helps a lot with the SOMETHING. It doesn't have to be formulaic either because you are free to rearrange and be creative next but you got to start with some raw material.

Yeah IMO its all about just putting stuff down, as soon as you start tweaking something and getting concerned with details you lose some of the flow and your arrangement session becomes a lot more difficult. Work fast while your inspiration/motivation/ears are fresh and it can be a lot more productive. Even if its a really bad rough sketch of a great idea, put something down so you can come back to it and remember your idea.

If the track in your signature is any indication it seems like you have a working method! : )

[Br/ainfu+ked]

circle of fifths and derive chords from those notes( or a circle of 4th's) make a sequence copy sequence change it so that it sounds different from the first bar
or clone the synth and tweak the settings if I want a different but similar sound to be played in the sequence

bounce the sound audio if the cpu gets too high and then tweak the arrangement until the song sounds coherent

so just throw stuff down

[Subflex]

your intro should be the "preview" of the verse to come.. at least thats how i think of it... so you can do things like show your root note, filter out high frequencies, do arpeggios of the chords you will use... things like that.. that will make the listener interested, and introduce them to the main sounds/melody that is coming

also, pitchbends up and your drum cadence can do wonders for creating tension during intros

[erik mitchell]

I've been working on my arrangements by getting a solid loop going with all of my elements. Copy & paste the loop for however many bars it takes to get to about 6-7 minutes. Then take away elements and tweak accordingly

Intro & outro will usually only have kick, snare, & hats with a few FX. Add the the bassline and other elements as you see fit

Also, copying a similar arrangement of a track you like can help you practice.

[VincentC]

I like to make a loop or two I like.. make a bunch of variations...
And then ditch everything but the few best... and go from there...

[thinlyspread]

I get the whole make an idea and then make a bunch of variations but what about structure? maybe this isn't the right thread but should there definitely be a structure and when you perform live are you gonna use things like beat repeats and stuff at rehearsed points or just "feel it" and play on the fly? Is there anyway to even answer a question like this?

Thanks people

[page the dj]

Originally Posted by thinlyspread

I get the whole make an idea and then make a bunch of variations but what about structure? maybe this isn't the right thread but should there definitely be a structure and when you perform live are you gonna use things like beat repeats and stuff at rehearsed points or just "feel it" and play on the fly? Is there anyway to even answer a question like this?

Thanks people

Ghost tracks!! When it comes to structure, ghost tracking is a great way to get the structure you seem to desire. Weather it is a track of yours or someone else's, this technique, at least for me, helps alot with the intro chorus verse structure of a tune. [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click here to register]


As far as getting stuck, in regard to synth or drum progression, there have been some solid tips in this thread already. If I would iterate a specific technique or process, it would be dynamics. Think about Mr reznor and just his use of vocal dynamics to create tension, peaks, and releases. If he was at 90-100⅞% all the time, it (the song) wouldn't move. It would just seem like noise. You can use the same hook or loop for the entire song, and in Techno it is common. The key is to use dynamics via filters, gates, variable thresholds on sidechain compression, verbs, ad infinitum, but by far the most important is velocity or gain either on the sample itself or on the mix in the mixer. Don't underestimate the human feeling here either, try recording automation rather than drawing ITB. As always IMHO.....

[tonicadroni]

I have a tip I'm using for making arrangements more interesting. I call it the linear element. Just droppinh loops in and out makes things a bit dull for me so I add a lead that doesn't circulate. Instead it's always evolving and it gives the feeling that the song goes from point A to point B.

For example my lead would play like this...

short intro to verse
verse1
verse2(verse 1 variated)
Chorus
Coda in the breakdown section
Improvised solo on chorus

I hope this helps :-)

[MrMinoxo]

I always try to follow a rough arrangement for the song. I try not to have something to concrete otherwise my songs get boring and dull. So basically I have a intro, then breakdwon, then chorus, then breakdown and bridge then chorus again. Simple